Trouble in Terrorist Town - a GMod gamemode

[Bad King Urgrain]

I'd say about standard, the Mac-10 has 8-9 Hammer squares of effective range. While the M16 can barely reach 10-11 effectively. The recoil is extremely high on the M16 for reasons I'm not sure, It has a buttstock, and shoots the relatively small 5.56x45mm NATO round.

I appreciate the idea, but hammer squares don't mean much to me either, because I've never mapped much. It's why I mentioned screenshots to illustrate ranges (you could make them in sandbox, I'm not picky).

[Raneman]

Basically, m16 has trouble at around 20 meters, while mac 10 can reach around 17 effectively.

[nrich588]

Meters don't exist in TTT.

[GrayScare0]

If you're going to use measurements, use the in-game units (as seen on radar, DNA scanner, and C4 HUD elements).

[Shifty Pete]

Bad King, Traitors have a red crosshair, Innocents have a green crosshair, why don't Detecetives have a blue crosshair? And why can't detectives team chat, but traitors can?

[Mr. Gash]

Bad King, Traitors have a red crosshair, Innocents have a green crosshair, why don't Detecetives have a blue crosshair? And why can't detectives team chat, but traitors can?

Detectives do have blue crosshairs, and detectives do have team chat.
What are you talking about?

[Darkest_97]

The dont have team voice chat Im assuming is what hes talking about. IIRC its because BKU didnt want the detectives to completely be their own team, which would be a lot easier if they could talk to eachother through mics.

[GrayScare0]

Plotting is definitely discouraged in TTT for the innocents.  It's not like Epic Mafia, where everyone can whisper to each other (as long as whispers aren't disabled) in order to discuss things privately or to have mass one-sided private messages (EM's role claims).  TTT does have the aforementioned D-D text chat, though, and servers can use 3D voice to emulate whispering, though this limits all voice chat (presumably including traitor chat?) and no text chat.

If detectives had access to private voice chat, I don't think the game would change that much in practice, but I also do not believe the detectives need access to it (or D-D text chat, for that matter).  There aren't enough detectives to make good use of it, but at the end of the round it could be a bit much.

If every player had access to private chat functions (even just one-sided I-D text reports...but maybe not if the reports were anonymous), I think the game would become far easier for the innocents unless something else changed quite a bit.

I do not anticipate--nor do I support, with the exception of throwing detective text chat out--any changes in regard to the means of communication innocents have.

[nrich588]

The Gamemode is fine as is. Why change core settings?

[GrayScare0]

The Gamemode is fine as is. Why change core settings?

He was simply asking why.

[Bad King Urgrain]

3D voicechat does not include traitor voicechat, for the record.

On a different note: if people still want changes to the MAC10, they may want to illustrate how it's unbalanced right about... now. I have time to mess with changing it in the next few days.

[Shifty Pete]

The Mac10 works long distance, yet the M16 doesn't.

In my opinion, there should only be a small amount zooming with iron sights, it makes it awkward to aim and your FOV goes to shit.

I say increase bullet spread for the Mac10, fix the iron-sight zooming for the M16, and give it a slightly higher fire rate.

[GrayScare0]

The M16 can't hit anything past a certain range, mainly because the gun jumps around way more than it should (and this is very annoying when zoomed in; it really makes matters worse), and the spread makes no sense after the first shot.  You'll be aiming at someone and shoot around them.  The MAC-10, on the the other hand, has basically no recoil.

I was recording various tests with the two weapons yesterday actually, and I was recording for the last week or so in general (not always using the radar to get you the range though).  If you want me to show you, I can; I just need to edit it down.  It's pretty hard to represent without actually playing the game, though.  As I've said, it's way too easy to counter-snipe with the MAC-10 provided you're not too far ('too far' is probably around 2000 or so units...the only test I specifically remember that it was challenging to kill someone was at 2500 units, though you could do it even then if you had the ammo and time).

What you really need to know, though, is that the M16 needs to hit where you're aiming more often (reduce spread, lower the zoom quite a bit...it doesn't really need lower recoil unless you're zoomed in right now), the MAC-10 needs to be far less predictable (increase the recoil quite a bit), and the Glock needs to buffed somehow (as I've said before, it needs one of the following to be buffed: magazine size, spread, or rate of fire.  It is only useful at the moment if your target is stationary and very close--and what isn't useful at that point?).

These are really the only changes to weapon balance that need to be made in my opinion.  If you wanted to modify the body reports (take out kill lists and make a convar for cause of death being ammo or weapon-based), make some F1 option in which you can select how you pick up weapons/ammo/grenades/equipment (use key for all/use key for equipment only/auto-pickup everything) such that players don't give out their positions on accident when walking over items, and make bindable commands for the things in I discussed in my topic that aren't bindable; that would be absolutely wonderful, but I understand you're basically done with development and that these things are not half the priority that the weapons are, and not everyone would even recognize these as problems.

[Bad King Urgrain]

I don't consider heavy recoil to be a reliable balancing tool, it's too easy to cheat around. A long while ago I moved most of the weapons with heavy recoil over to a wider spread. So I don't think increasing it for the MAC10 is the way to go, at least not as the only change. I can lower it further for the M16 while zoomed though.

Just to be completely clear on the terminology: recoil = how much the crosshair jumps after a shot; spread = how far shots diverge from the centre of the crosshair.

For the MAC10 I'm more thinking in the direction of lower headshot damage when further away, much like the shotgun has right now. Perhaps combined with slightly larger spread and other minor tweaks of the numbers.

You could grab a couple of frames/screenshots from the video that show the ranges involved, might take less time than editing the whole thing.

[nrich588]

I'll take shots of me shooting the weapons with out trying to stop the recoil. You should consider adding a new weapon to the TTT game such as a scoped assault rifle, such as the SG552. I think a lot of servers would benefit from it. Although I am not sure how difficult packaging the update would be.

[GrayScare0]

I don't consider heavy recoil to be a reliable balancing tool, it's too easy to cheat around. A long while ago I moved most of the weapons with heavy recoil over to a wider spread. So I don't think increasing it for the MAC10 is the way to go, at least not as the only change. I can lower it further for the M16 while zoomed though.

Just to be completely clear on the terminology: recoil = how much the crosshair jumps after a shot; spread = how far shots diverge from the centre of the crosshair.

For the MAC10 I'm more thinking in the direction of lower headshot damage when further away, much like the shotgun has right now. Perhaps combined with slightly larger spread and other minor tweaks of the numbers.

You could grab a couple of frames/screenshots from the video that show the ranges involved, might take less time than editing the whole thing.

I'm quite aware of the distinction, however the problem with the MAC-10 is not that it is a technically superior weapon (the Deagle is theoretically the best); rather, it is just incredibly easy to use and kill with.  You're not gambling as much with the MAC-10 as you are with any other weapon.  It is more versatile in practice than anything else, and it also kills more than anything else.

I do understand, though, that recoil is hard to use to balance the weapon around (especially due to cheaters), but the low recoil is the main thing that makes the MAC-10 the ultimate weapon for a one on one firefight.  The headshot damage could be reduced from range I suppose; it wouldn't make that big of a difference though.  Increasing the spread would be fine as well, but I still think the MAC-10's recoil needs to be increased at least slightly.

I definitely agree that the M16's spread should be decreased when zoomed.  That would make it much more useful at medium to medium-long range.  You still might consider taking the spread down a little bit, though; as I've said, it shoots "around" the target quite a bit from medium range on, even if you wait between shots.  It takes way too long for you to get a decent second shot due to adjusting for the recoil and waiting for the spread to fade off.

I think what I will do is just get some frames (like you suggested) and then explain just how easy it is to kill from the particular range or circumstance unless you want to watch complete games (which I think will show you more about just how the weapons are used).  I will do this for the three weapons discussed--and speaking of three, the Glock is, again, definitely in need of some buff; much more so than the M16.

Edit:

scoped assault rifle

If the M16 is "fixed", I don't see the need.  But as of now?  Yes.

[nrich588]

A .45ACP should have lower recoil than a 5.56x51mm.

[Marauder8]

A .45ACP should have lower recoil than a 5.56x51mm.

Not really, considering 5.56x45 is actually a relatively low recoil, small round, whereas the .45 ACP is a big, slow, high recoil round.

[nrich588]

Whoops, I think I deleted two words. You're right on both. I was thinking of the 7.62x51mm NATO round. MAC 10 should hit hard fast, but hard to control. M16 should hit precisely and easy to control.

[Bad King Urgrain]

So I was going to test some things out myself, but it turns out it wouldn't be very useful right now. Looks like garry is working on some huge update that's going to break a lot of stuff. There will be a beta for it etc. Until then there won't be any gmod updates as far as I can tell, so it would be pretty useless for me to make changes now. I could put a build up here on the forum but that takes more effort and no one checks that thread these days.

I'll put the requested balance changes on my list and make them as soon as garry has his update done, along with fixes for the stuff that it breaks. There will have to be testing and such at that point anyway, so it's a more effective way to spend everyone's time.