Trouble in Terrorist Town - a GMod gamemode

[Raneman]

Shotgun needs only a slight debuff, not a big one. A good player could still reliably get headshots but it's no longer a close range "I win" weapon.

Also, my second issue: the mac10 seems to be a better weapon at most ranges then the M16. The mac10 has too little recoil for your aim to be affected at short-medium range, while the M16 has horrendous recoil which prevents you from reliably fighting at mid range with it, which is what BKU probably had in mind. I would recommend leaving the mac10 alone and either giving the m16 less spread or less recoil. Less spread would turn it into a nice long range weapon when not on fully auto.

[Charles445]

Shotgun is fine as is.

M16 could definitely use some buffing.

[GrayScare0]

Shotgun needs only a slight debuff, not a big one. A good player could still reliably get headshots but it's no longer a close range "I win" weapon.

That's just the thing: If you're lucky and quick enough, you can dominate several players in a row in close range (something much harder with most other weapons, including the MAC-10, and this is the shotgun's biggest advantage for traitors).  Usually this does not happen, though, as it is not an easy weapon to be consistent with, and it becomes less and less useful at an astounding rate as range increases.

Also, my second issue: the mac10 seems to be a better weapon at most ranges then the M16. The mac10 has too little recoil for your aim to be affected at short-medium range, while the M16 has horrendous recoil which prevents you from reliably fighting at mid range with it, which is what BKU probably had in mind. I would recommend leaving the mac10 alone and either giving the m16 less spread or less recoil. Less spread would turn it into a nice long range weapon when not on fully auto.

Yes, you hit it dead on.  The spread is ridiculous with the M16.  The MAC-10, on the other hand, is so easy to control (and so good in general; the ROF and magazine are amazing) that you can use it pretty well in situations that it is obviously not designed to be good in (medium-long range, which is where the M16 is supposed to excel over most other weapons).  What this means in real gameplay is that the MAC-10 is an all-purpose weapon that is not only easier to control in almost every situation than any other weapon, but is also downright better.  Yes, the M16 user can headshot a target at medium range and deal huge damage, but it's actually easier and frequently more practical to just use the iron sights on the M16 and spray a quick burst at the guy.  Also, people get very mad (and understandably so!) when you countersnipe them with what is supposed to be an inaccurate spray-and-pray SMG.

Of course, server owners can always just modify the MAC-10 or M16 (which really does need the spread decreased; after the first shot, it becomes much harder to hit anything at medium range or beyond).

[nrich588]

I found reducing the recoil on the M16 offered the same/similar result as lowering the cone. The cone gets bigger the more the gun moves so by lowering the recoil, it serves double duty. Mac 10 also received a recoil boost which makes it a great close-medium range weapon but not into an all powerful slayer of titans. Two hit kill knife made traitor rounds a lot more fun, made me try some unorthodox tactics like instead of just knifing someone in the back. Discombobs become very useful because it disorients the player long enough to where you can maybe get a burst of rounds into them and not get called out. This works well if you use a knife if they go down to wounded. Which then I think the knife finds it's niche, weeding out the weaklings in the herd. I actually enjoy vanilla a lot more than custom now. May add Silenced Sniper but make it take up the primary weapon slot, making the player devoted to sniping instead of being able to shotgun and snipe. The RoF will be significantly low for balancing purposes. Damage will be low for body/leg/arm. But kill instantly with a headshot, making the weapon some what of a liability, and not over powered, any feedback would be appreciated on the changes.

[GrayScare0]

Please do be aware that players can weapon check other players' weapon slots very easily.  They ask you what your primary/secondary/grenade/whatever is, and you show it (and drop it if it's an ammo check).  If you claim not to have anything in the slot, they can drop something compatible (usually they don't have primary/secondary equipment, so they don't find out if you have any of those--though it is possible!).  If you pick it up without dropping anything, you're clear.  If you can't, you're lying.  Adding a silenced sniper as a primary seems kind of pointless because the idea is stealth, but it would be so easy to figure out who the silenced sniper guy is.  Of course, you could be outed and still snipe, but what difference does the silent death function have then?  Not much unless you're trying to keep the  innocents' "missing" counter low for a fellow traitor.  I guess if you're assumed dead it's okay, or if you just camp with a disguiser and avoid all contact; but in terms of preventing you from being identified as the traitor, it's not going to do you very many favors.  Just a heads up.  It seems that just using the regular sniper would be a batter option if the silenced sniper is to be implemented as you described.

Yeah, there are definitely a lot of new tactics that are introduced with the two-hit kill vanilla knife (and more tactics in general are required for the traitors, of course).  It is only "used up" if it kills, whether thrown or slashed.  It's good to weaken players and finish them with something else if they're not paying enough attention or you have limited ammo for your primary or secondary.  You can, of course, double tap them with the slash (though if they're paying attention, you'll probably be called out and/or shot).  The one-hit kill throw still exists (though only from a certain distance), and playing vanilla definitely pushes you to better your skill with throwing knives.  A very situational positive is that innocents suffer from the same drawbacks, so if your partner loses his/her knife or you throw yours and miss/don't instakill, the risk of an innocent knifing you decreases (hey, it happens! I killed a T, grabbed his knife, and chucked it at his buddy at very close range on an instakill knife server and killed her...this was a month or two ago on the LKS server, which has since added the suicide bomb).

[nrich588]

A clever player will use a disguiser/ teleporter while sniping. Sometime's both. So the idea is, you snipe, then teleport somewhere slightly obscure but in easy access of an open area so you can pretend you were completely unaware of the ensuing events. This will only be implemented on my Custom server which will be made to be more balanced. Will add a suicide bomb with a reasonably longer alalalalala time. Vanilla server will remain vanilla. 

[GrayScare0]

That's all great until you run into someone and they have a reason to ask for your weapon, but if it's just going to be on custom, I guess it doesn't make a big difference.

I'd also like to try your balanced server out soon.  Maybe over the weekend.  I haven't had much time lately, and I do apologize.

[nrich588]

I've made the Mac10 not as over powered and the M16 more of a mid range assault Rifle, which is its real life role as well. May change names a bit, I personally do not like the names given.

[Nel]

Will add a suicide bomb with a reasonably longer alalalalala time. 

I'll never understand the point of something like that, it's the equivalent of a traitor just opening fire on everyone they see.  It takes away the whole investigation portion of the game by providing both the victim/murder weapon/and the culprit.

[nrich588]

People like it on the custom server. I have a Vanilla server for that.

[Raneman]

I think that we should increase the limb damage on the pistol from 55% to 80%. Right now it takes an absurd number of hits unless you can hit the chest.

[Bad King Urgrain]

You could make a silenced sniper without a "social" counter (like innocents checking it) by making it an item that grants an ability, much like the Disguiser. When a traitor buys this "silent sniping" item, shots he fires with the rifle while zoomed in are silent. Note that the rifle is just the standard one, so innocents asking the traitor to drop it are wasting their time. Even asking the traitor to fire it is useless, because he can simply hipfire. Other players can't see if he scopes or not. Should be undetectable unless an innocent catches a traitor in the act of firing, as intended.

[Handy_man]

Surely the innocent could just ask for it to be dropped and then fire it himself while zoomed in and although this won't be thought of strait away the meta game will result in this action eventually.

[Raneman]

I shot someone standing still with the m16, shot them in the back for a good 2 seconds, and they do a 180 and instakill me from 10 feet. They had a mac 10. Fix it.

[nrich588]

I like BKU's Idea but then it starts turning into a CoD gunshop then. I could just let traitor's buy a rifle from the traitor menu that is a traitor's rifle. Same printname, but description explains more in detail. Similar to you're idea but a sniper rifle that is silenced.

[GrayScare0]

Surely the innocent could just ask for it to be dropped and then fire it himself while zoomed in and although this won't be thought of strait away the meta game will result in this action eventually.

He's talking about a passive ability.  That would not work.

I shot someone standing still with the m16, shot them in the back for a good 2 seconds, and they do a 180 and instakill me from 10 feet. They had a mac 10. Fix it.

Best you can do at the moment is play on a custom server that has the MAC-10 fixed unless BKU gets a change of heart about weapon balance.

I like BKU's Idea but then it starts turning into a CoD gunshop then. I could just let traitor's buy a rifle from the traitor menu that is a traitor's rifle. Same printname, but description explains more in detail. Similar to you're idea but a sniper rifle that is silenced.

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but what you are considering implementing sounds a lot more like CoD to me.  Anyways, all BKU is doing is trying to help you come up with a way for your rifle to be "uncheckable".

[Bad King Urgrain]

I shot someone standing still with the m16, shot them in the back for a good 2 seconds, and they do a 180 and instakill me from 10 feet. They had a mac 10. Fix it.

I have no concept of how far 10 feet is in-game.

I have vague plans to do a small update a few weeks from now, so if you can convince me then a MAC10 change will happen. However, you'll have to bring some better information. Like for example, show at what range MAC10 users are still effective when you feel they shouldn't be (screenshots to indicate the distance preferred, don't have to be live in-game).

Feel free to make a separate thread on this.

[nrich588]

I'd say about standard, the Mac-10 has 8-9 Hammer squares of effective range. While the M16 can barely reach 10-11 effectively. The recoil is extremely high on the M16 for reasons I'm not sure, It has a buttstock, and shoots the relatively small 5.56x45mm NATO round.

[GrayScare0]

if you can convince me then a MAC10 change will happen.

Challenge accepted.  I will show you the imbalance of the Glock, M16, and MAC-10.  I think the best way to show you would be a video; something cut down a lot so all you're seeing are the kills.

[nrich588]

Glock is so under powered. I have trouble killing a wounded player with one clip. With a deagle or Five seveN you can easily mow thru two players.