My little TTT rant

[Sjeff]

Intro:
You might find this to be TL;DR, but that's because I'm listing a lot of things that are problems in TTT and explaining why they are problems.javascript:replaceText('%20:disgust:',%20document.forms.postmodify.message);

Lately I've been noticing things about TTT that takes a good amount of the "There is a traitor amongst you, killing each and everyone of you off one by one" out of the game mode, and was wondering what other people thought of this. If you don't understand what I'm talking about, it's sort of like how DarkRP has absolutely nothing to do with RP (even if it was originally intended to) and is all base raids with a few rules that make it short of being a deathmatch server. TTT is nowhere near this though, and replicates what it's goal is pretty well, but it's sort of derived from that a bit which is what I'm going to be talking about.


Servers seem to have the most impact on how close the TTT is to the whole "Who dunnit?" idea.
Side Note: I also just want to say if you've seen me on your server (I'm usually named Fatt Sjeff), I'm not really going to be complaining about your server or community individually because I play a very large variety of servers.

The two major things I've noticed that make the server (community) itself a bigger contributor to how much TTT derives from the goal of "Who dunnit?" is first the servers rules, and secondly the mods a server has (if any). I'd add player count but I'm pretty sure we all know how much this effects TTT's... TTTness.

Rules: Sometimes rules can hinder thinking and use of evidence. Obviously this is to safeguard from players using, what I like to call, retard logic and killing someone for something that makes no sense at all, and people just wanting to find a excuse to kill someone for revenge RDM. An example of these rules are "Can't kill for suspicion", "Can't kill for last words", "Can't kill for last person seen", "Can't kill someone for what weapon they have". There are probably more but I'll just address these ones for now and hopefully you can see where I'm coming from and apply it to other rules

Can't kill for suspicion - This rule itself is very very vague, and theres a line between a hunch and something that is ridiculously blatant.

An example of what I'm talking about for something really blatant:
I was on richland and there where about 8 people on the server. I think 5 of the people where in the parkinglot and someone eventually sniped the detective and another guy. Instantly I know that each of the 3 people left are not the traitor that is sniping, which makes the 3 people not in the general area the only possibilities for the sniper. I eventually go to the roof of one of the buildings, and one of the people who could have been a suspect came up with his pistol out and he was badly hurt. I should also note there is a sniper of full ammo on the roof. I presented my suspicion of him, and he replied with "Nah brah", and then I found out he had a sniper for his primary. So already I'm about 80% sure it's him, but I leave anyways knowing I don't have enough evidence. I return about 5 seconds later and I found a sniper in a different spot on the roof, and the one full of ammo missing. I pick up the sniper and find 5 shots missing. Right now it's pretty obvious that it's him, but I still can't kill him because I haven't caught him red handed.

You can see how a really vague rule like this hinders the use of evidence in logic for TTT.

There are even some element put in the game that are restricted like "last seen" or "last words". Obviously these can be abused or use by people who are just stupid and think things such as someone who got sniped last seeing the other detective must make the detective the killer, and then there's the fact that people can't read properly and take "The killer or coincidence" as "The killer". However, at the same time this sort of limits use of common sense, and the visualizer.

An example of this limiting common sense:
I recall playing on a dm_island and I found a body in the sewer, spattered with blood all along the walls, and unidentified. His last words was "I'm with X". I instantly said "Kos X", and the admin addressed me in that little text that pops up on screen saying "You can't use last words that would be RDM", to which I responded with "It's obviously him, look at how closed in this area is and stuff" to which the admin replied "He could have suicided, or been randomly calling out to joke around." It was pretty damn obvious that he didn't suicide considering the last weapon, and there was the fact that the person never ID'd the body. However this still wasn't enough for the all might rules.

I'm pretty sure this rule is pretty rare, but I want to give an idea of how rules in general can limit thinking + use of evidence, and if used need to be modified so that people can actually think but not use it as an excuse for RDM.


Modifications can also have a impact on the whole "Who dunnit?" scenario.
I'm going to explain this using a mod we all know. The Jihad. The jihad is funny sometimes, but if you look at the whole concept it really doesn't improve the whole "Someone's a killer among us" at all. Sure you can run into a crowd and rack up a bunch of kills but that nullifies the whole point of secretly killing off each member of the group one by one.

Also a lot of servers like to give T's extra weapons (ak47, silence tmp, etc) that are either useless, make it easier for T's to go on a rampage, or are just plain overpowered as fuck (rocket launchers, etc). The later just make it easier for T's to win, but completely lack that whole "Someone is coming to kill you" idea. I mean I recall there being times when the traitor would literally call himself out, and go on a rampage with said overpowered weapons and typically getting a very large amount of kills. However, the rampage issue is a problem that can be created by the players themselves.


The players
A lot of players are in that "Caught them red handed" type of mentality and sometimes they can see T kill someone right infront of them, or do something obnoxiously traitorous and be too dumbfounded to respond because typically they're like "Wait why did you do that." or think it's a inno T baiting, etc and not want to be killed. You obviously see where the issue lies when that person actually is a T.

There is also the issue that a lot of players are not exactly observant. I always see call outs and stuff that no one else notices and bring it up, but if I don't I always hear people raging in spectate about how "I called whats it out and no one realize." There is also the fact that you can literally be talking to someone and be cut off and no one is smart enough to make the connection. Like I saw a guy get shot with a deagle call detective to his body, 2 seconds later a guy with a deagle shows up and I was asking him "Hey X, that's a nice deagle. You didn't kill this guy did you X? X, I think you should get lo-" and then I get cut off, without anyone making the obvious connection.

There is also the fact that people can sort of have blitzkrieg traitor rounds with absurd results. Typically they can rampage through a group of people at the right time, and everyone's too surprised to know what's going on and they don't know who to shoot. It's really ridiculous sometimes how well one person can overpower a group of people. Now you may say "Oh, he was just doing a good job as a traitor" but was it that or was it that the players where just failing so hard at innos that he could just plow through them? I mean this isn't the whole killing each person off secretly idea, it's more of "Oh hay I can get a lot of kills in 5 seconds because these guys are fucktarded." I remember I've actually combined this tactic with a c4, where I planted a c4 in the room behind, bought body armor, and started Rambo-ing the fuck out of people with a Mac10, deagle, and one of the T weapons you can buy so I could switch through weapons without having to reload. Instead of getting out of the area, I remained in the same spot and by the time they took me down the C4 had 4 seconds left and killed everyone who killed me. To some people this might be a clever way to rack up a lot of kills, but really TTT isn't about frags.

I've also noticed that sometimes players prefer to screw around until their T round, rather than hunt down a traitor.

Edited in - Another thing I'd like to bring up is how people rarely try to manipulate people as traitor. I mean things like lying, confusion, and making false trails can add a huge amount of fun to the whole idea of "tracking down the killer" but this type of style is a rarity. I bullshit people every round so I know more than the T's think I know so if I eventually do figure out who the T is or have a strong suspicion of who the T is, I can convince them that I completely trust them in every possible way and making them lower their guard or more likely to screw up... and don't give away my T round when I try to bullshit people more. Eventually the players caught onto my methods and someone asked "Fatt why do you b.s. so much" and before I could respond someone instantly said "He's trolling, he's been trolling for the past 3 maps." I find it very disturbing when methods that are very effective for winning TTT are considered to be 'trolling', and it sort of goes to show how players don't really use their minds much in TTT.


A lot of maps make it easier for this type of mentality to
I've been making a map, and I've been analyzing what people like about the most popular maps, and what people hate about maps that are played but not played often. I've found that the most popular maps make it easier for people who have the whole "Unobservant, catch em red handed" mentality.

I'm going to state the maps that I have found to be the most popular so you know which maps I'm talking about: Richland, 67thway, whitehouse, island, etc. I can't recall anymore of the huge players off the top of my head at the moment, but if you have one you see be played a lot see if what I'm talking about applies to that map:

I've found a lot of people like maps where guns are practically given to you, obnoxiously bright so you can see everywhere, and easy to navigate.

The issues with these is it even further reduces how much thought is required to play TTT. Like on one map there where definitely guns but they weren't exactly pouring out of the windows of the buildings, but they weren't hidden either. The biggest complaint is that "This gun has no maps." but if you used some frigen common sense you could probably find them, for example, the gun closet in the police station (you probably know which map I'm talking about now). It just really seems to be a problem when the players want everything given to them.

Bright maps where you can see every corner of everything sure are easier to look at but that isn't TTT. However, I'm convinced it's natural seeing as most popular maps are sunny in any game. For example, CS:S the biggest maps are dust2 and office. The runners up are just as bright, and I have never seen a darker map except maybe a dust_night one. But still, TTT isn't CS:S. I mean when you picture a terrorist in a Sherlock Holmes hat and pipe in room say "Gentlemen, one of us... is a traitor" to be followed by a crash of lightning, and it's typically nighttime when this happens to. Aren't all murder mystery's and such typically done at night? Also bright maps seem to make it even easier for unobservant players to derp around and see stuff without much effort put in at all.




Conclusion
To end my long as fuck rant I will say this: TTT does it's job of someone secretly killing each person off, but to what extent? A hell of a lot longer than any other game imaginable, but I don't think there is any other game that tries to fit the goal of TTT so what comparison is that? I think the best way to summarize what I'm trying to say is, "TTT isn't about frags".

Edit: Added something I forgot to mention

[DemiGod]

Quite the interesting first post, Sjeff.

[Shifty Pete]

That's exactly how I feel about TTT.

[Sjeff]

Quite the interesting first post, Sjeff.

Thanks! I always sort of had the feeling that TTT, while being good at replicating a "Who dunnit?" scenario, never really got to its full potential. I decided to look into why this was, and posted what I came up with here to see if anyone agreed with me.

That's exactly how I feel about TTT.

Yeah, but I think that it can be fixed depending on the server and player base. Maps are also very important, and I've noticed that the most popular maps, whitehouse, richland, 67thway, minecraft, etc... aren't really great for TTT. Players like them because they're easy to play, but they don't reinforce what TTT really stands for.

[Anonymous]

This, is the best and most accurate post on this Forum.

[Thatniftysage]

"I should also note there is a sniper of full ammo on the roof. I presented my suspicion of him, and he replied with "Nah brah", and then I found out he had a sniper for his primary. So already I'm about 80% sure it's him, but I leave anyways knowing I don't have enough evidence. I return about 5 seconds later and I found a sniper in a different spot on the roof, and the one full of ammo missing. I pick up the sniper and find 5 shots missing. Right now it's pretty obvious that it's him, but I still can't kill him because I haven't caught him red handed."

-He could of started shooting random objects (like I do) when bored.  Swapping weapons is not a sign either, some people realise that they are at a disadvantage etc regardless of team.

"I recall playing on a dm_island and I found a body in the sewer, spattered with blood all along the walls, and unidentified. His last words was "I'm with X". I instantly said "Kos X", and the admin addressed me in that little text that pops up on screen saying "You can't use last words that would be RDM", to which I responded with "It's obviously him, look at how closed in this area is and stuff" to which the admin replied "He could have suicided, or been randomly calling out to joke around." It was pretty damn obvious that he didn't suicide considering the last weapon, and there was the fact that the person never ID'd the body. However this still wasn't enough for the all might rules."

-Clearly you should choose your servers better.

"Also a lot of servers like to give T's extra weapons (ak47, silence tmp, etc) that are either useless, make it easier for T's to go on a rampage, or are just plain overpowered as fuck (rocket launchers, etc). The later just make it easier for T's to win, but completely lack that whole "Someone is coming to kill you" idea. I mean I recall there being times when the traitor would literally call himself out, and go on a rampage with said overpowered weapons and typically getting a very large amount of kills. However, the rampage issue is a problem that can be created by the players themselves."

-See above post

There is really a lot of TL'DR in your post.

Games are full of dumb people. If you play on a server long enough you will begin to understand which servers have better players etc. Best stick to those ones.

[Marauder8]

One of the problems being is that players get too pissy over "RDM". The whole innocents killing innocents was one of the best parts about TTT, because it was hilarious watching innocents getting so paranoid over the actions of the traitor that they all killed each other.

[Bad King Urgrain]

TTT is inherently a social game, hence it stands or falls by its players (of which servers and mods are but a consequence). No way around it.

[Sjeff]

"I should also note there is a sniper of full ammo on the roof. I presented my suspicion of him, and he replied with "Nah brah", and then I found out he had a sniper for his primary. So already I'm about 80% sure it's him, but I leave anyways knowing I don't have enough evidence. I return about 5 seconds later and I found a sniper in a different spot on the roof, and the one full of ammo missing. I pick up the sniper and find 5 shots missing. Right now it's pretty obvious that it's him, but I still can't kill him because I haven't caught him red handed."

-He could of started shooting random objects (like I do) when bored.  Swapping weapons is not a sign either, some people realise that they are at a disadvantage etc regardless of team.

Yeah, that's a possibility, but it was way more likely that he was the sniper (considering that it was one of 3 people, one which I was pretty sure was dead). Also he didn't swap the sniper for a better gun, he swapped the sniper for the sniper full of ammo. It wasn't switching the weapons that was suspicious, it was the fact that he was missing 5 shots. I mean if you put this all together it's pretty strong, and players shouldn't T bait if they don't want to risk dying.

One of the problems being is that players get too pissy over "RDM". The whole innocents killing innocents was one of the best parts about TTT, because it was hilarious watching innocents getting so paranoid over the actions of the traitor that they all killed each other.

Yeah, it reminds me of those whiney 10 year olds on DerpRP that nag the fuck out of a admin to ban you for raiding their base (which is all that DarkRP is about now adays). I agree with you though, provoking rdm's as T is hilarious.

I typically find someone who is really paranoid, and to be honest, stupid and shoot them from across the map with a silence pistol so they kill the guy next to them.

TTT is inherently a social game, hence it stands or falls by its players (of which servers and mods are but a consequence). No way around it.

Yeah, it's not so much the gamemode as it is the servers/players/maps. However, I think that if a server had appropriate maps, rules, and expectations on how their players act, I think it could bring out the best of the gamemode.

Also it'd be nice if the servers tried to shift their player base to the 'evidence gathering' mentality, and if somehow blitzkriegs (where the T just rambos everyone) where a lot less effective.

I think fixing it is possible, I mean if you look at DarkRP and how it isn't about RP, HL2RP eventually came out showing that Gmod could infact be used for proper roleplaying.

edit: Another example of how player bases can be smarter: I play CS:S occasionally and typically most people are about kills and such, and there is not coordination. However, I frequent on a server that actually bans you if you don't follow the plan, and it's almost like a scrim every time you play on it. I think it's the only server that people actually come up with a plan and execute it on.

[Shifty Pete]

Quite a lot of servers tend to go quantity over quality, and just throw any old piece of crap on the server - this goes for maps, weapons, the lot. It's quite annoying. They go overboard on everything.

Vanilla TTT can be bland, so I don't mind a few additions or modifications, but few servers pull it off with a good balance.

[Sjeff]

Quite a lot of servers tend to go quantity over quality, and just throw any old piece of crap on the server - this goes for maps, weapons, the lot. It's quite annoying. They go overboard on everything.

Vanilla TTT can be bland, so I don't mind a few additions or modifications, but few servers pull it off with a good balance.

It's not so much the mods. it's more of how the rules come in, and how the community is expected to act. Mods can be one of the make or break factors, for example, jihads which I went into saying why they sort of take the whole "Who dunnit?" thing out of ttt. I think I've actually played on your server before, although considering the fact it's on the other side of the world, I was lagging too hard to really do anything.

I think I stated earlier how server rules and what is expected, for a variety of games, can really impact how the player base acts.

edit: I think this is a major thing though. If one tried to completely reshape the expectations for TTT, and how players are suppose to play the game might push a lot of players away. For example, in my hl2rp thing I remember someone I knew followed me to a server and treated it like it was DarkRP and did things like jump off buildings and live from fall damage (despite the fact he would have died in character), and after he finally got his character deleted he said "This is stupid." to me in steam chat.

HL2RP still is decently popular though, so I think there is a way to do this without pushing everyone and anyone away.

[SovietX]

This is actually a really interesting post. Usually you get crap with rants, well done my friend.

[sniperduck]

This is actually a really interesting post. Usually you get crap with rants, well done my friend.

I agree. It brings up good points, and manages to not insult people in the process. Plus its not just "people suck" its actualy has reasoning for why he thinks what he does.
Good post is good.