[WzGaming.net]Trouble in Terrorist Town Haste|Custom|FastDL

[nrich588]

Warzone Gaming is a small gaming Community that hosts both a Trouble in Terrorist Town Server and a Zombie Panic: Source server. We have several custom weapons and entities on our server but have managed to kept the game play balanced and unique. We try not to damage the traitor role with weird and semi-pointless weapons yet still give him a few extra tools to get the job done.

Server IP: 216.246.108.82:27016

Gameplay Style:
We run Haste to make the rounds quicker and more intense, we also have strict RDMing, following, and Prop Killing Rules. If you'd like to know more or join the community, visit us at: www.WzGaming.net

Custom Auto-Spawn Weapons:
IMI Galil
Benelli M3
SigSaur552
FN P90
AKM (AK47)
Styer AUG
H&K MP5

Traitor Weapons

Arctic Warfare Rifle (AWP)- Single Shot Rifle, Instant Kill, very loud though.

Jihad Bomb- Sacrifice yourself for Allah! Receive 72 virgins upon use.

Styer TMP- A quick silent killer.

Detective Weapons

Peacemaker (Revolver)- 6 Shots, Headshot instant kill, fast firing rate.

Breacher (SuperM3)- A more powerful M3 Shotgun with less ammo in the gun.


To prevent griefers, we have admins in almost around the clock to insure you have a pleasant gaming Experience. Please stop in and have fun!

Happy Gaming!

[GrayScare0]

It looks to me that instead of trying to flesh out the power roles, you have just given them additional firepower avialble for purchase.  This is a terrible idea.  It makes the game gravitate more towards deathmatch and less towards deception.

You also have way too many custom weapons.  The more you have, the more obvious it is who killed who based on their cause of death.  This makes the detective work quite shallow.

You didn't disclose the exact rules, but you claim to have strict following and RDM rules.  The fact that these are together makes me worry; your server is indubitably one of those terrible ones in which I must tell someone to stop following me 3 times with a 5 second gap between each proclamation before I am allowed to kill.  If your concept of evidence is so shallow, I would hate to imagine how any sort of serious play style or real detective work would fare on your server.

I know this sounds harsh.  Just trying to get you to see how serious play would be limited on your server.

[nrich588]

How would it be easy to identify who killed who? Maybe if you're an idiot and keep the same weapon after you kill someone, then yes detective work would be easy.

It's three seconds in between each warning. Allowing for a quicker kill. But honestly we don't badger as long as the person finishes their sentence and doesn't say "Go awa-Go awa-Go away." *BAM*. I could see what you are saying about brute force in the Jihad but I people rarely use it, and most who use it are new to the Game. The AWP does require cunning, because you have to be sure that no one is around or else you're cover is easily blown because of the loud weapon.

I'm sorry you don't like playing on server's that Don't like RDM. Maybe try Nuclear Velocity, where I've been RDMed by admins and then kicked for asking why I was killed. (Sorry for the rant.)

Clicking the link will take you to this place where you can view the server rules, or just by joining the server you can view the rules.

It's not more firepower either, you still get the same amount of credits, just more option that filled in obvious gaps in traitor weapons. The TMP is so common I originally thought it was a stock weapon, the AWP filled the long-range issues with Traitors while the Jihad is just for entertaining people. I removed it for a few days and was quickly yelled by the players who demanded it back. Sorry, I let the people decide.

[nrich588]

Also, the boost in weapon's really has no counter when you have a knife jabbed inside you. You could have a tactical nuke but that does no good when you are dead.

[sniperduck]

"I'm sorry you don't like playing on server's that Don't like RDM. Maybe try Nuclear Velocity, where I've been RDMed by admins and then kicked for asking why I was killed. (Sorry for the rant.) "

Probaly hatsunes freinds, he join NV i think.

[nrich588]

Yeah I know, He's like
"NV is so much better then your server and sniper ducks." He's a turbo nerd.

[GrayScare0]

I'm sorry you don't like playing on server's that Don't like RDM. Maybe try Nuclear Velocity, where I've been RDMed by admins and then kicked for asking why I was killed. (Sorry for the rant.)

What?  I don't think you understand.  I don't like servers where the admins are responsible for the thinking.  If someone follows me into a closet, I'm going to kill them.  I'm not going to give them warnings and tell them about my intention.  I would just be killed.  I don't need an admin telling me whether I have enough evidence to kill; I think for myself and kill when it feels right.  I end up being correct over 90% of the time.  I was saying that it sucks when admins come up with stupid rules to protect people's traitor rounds and limit legitimate play styles such as my own.

For the huge variety in weapons: Regardless of whether or not you drop your weapon after killing someone, the weapon still exists to be DNA scanned (some guy killed by an MP5?  DNA scan the 2 MP5's on the map maybe!), and believe it or not, some people actually pay attention to who is holding what BEFORE the kill.

[nrich588]

I don't consider following someone into a closet following, I'd consider that Traitor baiting, in which you could shoot them. We've never had the weapon problem where you immediately know who the traitor/killer is by the weapon used. This is because it has an undesired but nice side effect, it makes traitors work faster, which in turn produces a more fun, and intense game. Would you suggest moving some of these weapons out or into the hands of Traitors/Detectives?

[GrayScare0]

Would you suggest moving some of these weapons out or into the hands of Traitors/Detectives?

I think we have such different ideas about what makes TTT an enjoyable experience that just about any suggestion of mine is bound to not be taken well.  I think, though, that having so many weapons available changes the game drastically.  The already powerful ammo and weapon checks suddenly become even more powerful.  Suspicions based on primary or hiding your primary have much more merit.  Ultimately, detective work takes a shift in the wrong direction and weapon balance becomes even harder to manage.  So yes, I would advise you cut the number of weapons down.

That said, there is one thing you could (possibly) do to enhance the current experience drastically: When someone's cause of death is being shot to death, make the "weapon" field into an ammo field instead.  That is, if someone is killed by a MAC-10, his/her cause of death is being shot to death, and you find SMG bullet wounds.  Something like that so the primary of the murderer is not immediately given away.

[nrich588]

That actually is a good idea, because, when I detective really looks at a body, they don't know what weapon killed them without seeing the smoking gun itself. They say they were killed by a 9mm round, or 5.56mm x 51mm. I like that idea. The following rule was set implace because people couldn't handle themselves and would say 'oh he was following me'. And with no way to 100% check if they are correct, we resorted to the best option to ensure "fairness".

[GrayScare0]

I agree.  Beyond that, I really have no problem with playing on servers with additional weapons, provided they are fairly balanced.  Generally, such servers have other things I disagree with, but the weapons alone aren't the problem.

I suggested this change several months ago; it would make a great convar, though I'm not sure how practical it is to code.  In terms of gameplay, though, checking a corpse gives you too much information as it is.  It gives you exactly how long ago the person died, the cause of death (alongside weapon and whether or not the player was headshot when relevant), the role, the name, the person's kill list, any passive equipment the person had, C4 information, last words, last person seen (for detective), and a DNA timer (also only when relevant).  Credits can be gained upon identification by a power role, the body can be DNA scanned, and all people in the kill list are automatically KIA.  I don't think I'm forgetting anything unless the decoy is also in.  This is just way too much in my opinion.

Adding additional content makes matters worse, and I don't really think that is necessary.  There are plenty of legitimate niches in the weapon roles to fill, and the basic eight weapons can get very boring.  I've put several hundreds of hours into TTT, very few of which were on custom servers.  The issues in weapon balance become apparent fairly quickly, but far worse are the gaps.  There should really be something between MAC-10 and M16, for an example.  When more weapons are added, though, there is generally more variety in the weapons players are wielding at any given time.  This means that when it comes down to finding a player using a certain weapon, it becomes easier and easier through the process of elimination (and harder and harder for that player to avoid identification; dropping weapons only gets you so far).

The problem is definitely a TTT issue; I'm not blaming you guys.  I would more readily join custom servers if the idea I suggested became a reality.  I'm not saying that I don't understand the design choice though; it's tolerable in vanilla TTT (it only really applies to the four 9mm weapons including silenced pistol, and all of them are underused...technically it also applies to UMP and MAC-10, but there's almost never such misunderstandings with the UMP), but it severely hurts the custom experience.

[nrich588]

I've been considering taking a long look at all the weapon statistics and writing them in a table and with certain categories such as 'cone size,' 'damage', 'recoil', etc. Then add weapons that could realistically fill any large gaps in the weapons chart. Some stock weapons, mostly the standard shotgun irk me. They fire uncomfortably slow and are unpleasant to use. That was one of the motivations for adding the M3, which in my opinion, represents a shotgun in a much cleaner way.

I will release serveral balancing updates (which have been in the making). You should stop in some time. I have been considering pruning the weapons list a bit.

[GrayScare0]

Now you've got me started on weapon balance.  Great.

Yes, the standard shotgun is very strange.  I don't think it knows quite which role it's trying to fill.  I really have a hard time with it.  Sometimes I also have a tough time with the HUGE; the majority of the strategy is to keep the recoil down, but it's still generally a matter of luck.  Sometimes I can get six innocents in a very small time frame with it.  Other times it just shoots everywhere but where I'm aiming.  The sniper rifle, too, is a risky weapon to use just because it's so situational.  It only truly excels at ranges in which all other weapons are useless (you can use it at closer ranges, but the Deagle is better suited for such situations).  It's easy to end up being confronted at close range in TTT, and with the sniper, you better either pull off a headshot or be good with your secondary.

The M16 and MAC-10 are the weapons to have in most situations.  The M16 deals massive damage on headshots and has a slight "zoom" when using the ironsights.  It is adequate at close range, very good at medium range, and decent at long range.  The main problem is the slow ROF; ammo is also low, but it fires slowly enough that it does not make a difference.  For the innocent, choosing the M16 over the MAC-10 can be a bit of a gamble because the advantages of the M16 diminish against traitors with body armor and a good close range weapon, such as the shotgun or MAC10.  The traitor cannot be allowed to get close, and the innocent needs to either catch the traitor off guard or headshot him/her promptly, otherwise the traitor will likely either get close and outdamage the innocent or the innocent might screw up and run out of ammo (the M16 gets quite inaccurate quite quickly when fired at auto, so if you panic with the M16, you generally lose the firefight).

The MAC-10 is the most versatile weapon in the game.  No questions.  It tears apart at close range, but still manages to be reliable at surprisingly long ranges.  The reload is slow, but you have 30 shots (the most in any weapon besides the HUGE) and an insane ROF.  It has problems with taking on more than one guy at a time (something the shotgun and HUGE are better at), but it's definitely possible to get a few guys without reloading if you make every shot count.

The sidearms are more useful than most people give them credit.  Usually I find it is best to compliment your primary.  Ideally, you should have an instakill weapon and a non-instakill weapon.  The pistol and Glock compliment the shotgun well (accuracy and ROD respectively), the Deagle is good for the MAC-10 and M16 (instakill; for M16 it's nice to have separate ammo pools as well), and the Glock serves as an (unreliable) backup weapon for a sniper.  The HUGE can benefit from any of them, as it is really more of a disposable tool than it is a primary weapon.

The pistol is a very good finisher due to its accuracy and large ammo pool (with respect to its ROF).  You can miss several times and still not have to worry about reloading, and the damage isn't bad at all.  The Glock is overall very bad, but when necessary, you can get right next to someone and mow them down, or you could use it for (brief) suppressing fire.  It really needs either ROF, damage, or magazine capacity to be increased.  Not 100% sure which would be the most balanced, but I'm leaning towards magazine capacity.

The Deagle, much like the HUGE, is more of a tool than a weapon.  Its low ROF and magazine capacity (along with its surprisingly low base damage) mean that it's pretty bad in a firefight.  The main function of the Deagle is the instakill headshot.  It is only really useful for pulling out and shooting once to hit the head.  You don't want to have to shoot it multiple times unless you're shooting multiple guys and you can pull off the headshots quickly and consistently.  Otherwise, you'd better get a primary out.

Overall, I would say that the vanilla weapons are fairly balanced.  A few tweaks here and there would be nice; such as lowering the accuracy of the MAC-10, making the M16 ever so slightly more accurate when firing multiple shots in succession, tuning the shotgun so as to give it a more defined role, and buffing the Glock.  The pistol, Deagle, sniper, and HUGE are all just fine.  They all do their jobs, however obscure they may be.

I definitely agree that the M3 is a good idea for a stabile alternative to the autoshotty.  Weapons between the MAC-10 and the M16 and also between the M16 and the sniper are also needed.  Really the only concerns for adding new weapons are function, balance, and the aforementioned corpse identification deal.  Function is a given due to the gaping holes in vanilla TTT.  For balance, the main thing to avoid is making a weapon more versatile than (or, honestly, as versatile as) the MAC-10.  Also, stay away from any weapon that kills on a body shot (the AWP!).  The kills should not be so easy, even if the AWP is risky.  Having to aim for the head keeps the sniper balanced.  If you hit another part or miss completely, the target has a chance to get away.  When the AWP is used, there really is no chance.  The error was merely being in the sights, and the skill required for the traitor to pull off the kill is much lower (making the AWP much more reliable).

[Marauder8]

The reason the weapons such as the Sniper rifle, MAC, shotgun etc are as they are, is mostly due to the fact that TTT was first a game played on Zombie Master, which featured the shotgun, MAC, Rifle, Pistol, Revolver and Molotov, therefore when TTT was made, the weapons reflected that of ZM. The M16, HUGE and everything else was just added later to fill any gaps left for this change of gamemode, effectively balancing the game out, without the need of these custom weapons.

[Bad King Urgrain]

The problem is definitely a TTT issue; I'm not blaming you guys.  I would more readily join custom servers if the idea I suggested became a reality.  I'm not saying that I don't understand the design choice though; it's tolerable in vanilla TTT (it only really applies to the four 9mm weapons including silenced pistol, and all of them are underused...technically it also applies to UMP and MAC-10, but there's almost never such misunderstandings with the UMP), but it severely hurts the custom experience.

Part of the metagame. There was a time when all traitors tended to use the shotgun, which then led to the shotgun being a very suspicious weapon to walk around with. As a Traitor on a server with many weapons, you would have to take care to use weapons that innocents also use, or simply swap weapons all the time.

Corpses give a ton of information specifically to make them valuable and worth finding/hiding/burning/etc.

[GrayScare0]

The M16, HUGE and everything else was just added later to fill any gaps left for this change of gamemode, effectively balancing the game out, without the need of these custom weapons.

I don't know what gives you the impression that I'm disputing the function or history of (most) of the weapons.  I am commenting on how the balance could be improved.  Again, I may not have been playing this game when it was first released, but I've been playing it for over a year and have logged several hundreds of hours into it.  I still play it even today.  I assure you that both the gaps in the weapon functions and the weapon balance issues I have discussed have a very real impact on the game.

As a Traitor on a server with many weapons, you would have to take care to use weapons that innocents also use, or simply swap weapons all the time.

Yes, that is usually necessary.  Better yet is to never have your primary out, but that too can arouse suspicion.

Corpses give a ton of information specifically to make them valuable and worth finding/hiding/burning/etc.

I understand.  Corpses are extremely valuable if you can take the time to read all the results--you normally cannot do this, though, due to the pacing of the game.  It is usually best as an innocent to double tap "use" on the corpse, move on, and check the results in your tab menu.  As a traitor, it is usually too risky to hide bodies (you need to be awfully secluded or someone will find you quite easily due to the noise it makes), but you can always either burn the body or use it as bait.

It's not exactly a huge deal for vanilla servers, but the fact is that DNA + all the information + the tab menu (especially when the detective checks a body and EVERYONE can see the results) is way too much power to the innocents provided they quickly ID the body and move on.  Getting rid of the tab menu corpse details would honestly be a welcome change, but so would lowering the quality of the results.  Maybe instead of having an exact timer for DNA and time of death, you could use more general descriptions (like 'it is evident that he has just died', or 'this body has been sitting here for a while'--of course it isn't realistic, but it's an improvement over the exact timer).  Just a few ideas.

Also, corpse hiding is really not as big of an aspect of the game as you seem to think it is due to the pacing.  It is simply not done very often.  Any sort of group of innos or lone wolf patrolling the area immediately destroys the plan.  Then there is,  of course, the fact that deaths are usually noisy, and there are alive checks and other simple methods of determining who is alive and who is not.  This greatly aids corpse finding.  Hiding corpses is a fine idea provided it is both helpful (it isn't going to do you much good usually against the last few people unless the corpse is very close to a camping innocent, as they usually are going to shoot quite quickly anyway) and safe.  Those are really the only two things to keep in mind.  Regardless, it is very uncommon that both criteria are met.  The game is just too fast and the decent innocents catch on quickly.

I don't want to give you the impression that I am suggesting you change anything or that I am complaining.  This is just an analysis into how the game plays out along with ideas for how the game could be improved through customization.

[nrich588]

Creating a TTT 'Balanced' Server soon in addition to the customized server.

Proposed changes:
Glock Lower recoil, more damage, higher firing rate.
Deagle Slight Increase in body damage.
Pistol Considering increasing rate of fire, will test with and without.

Mac10: No change
M16: No change
Rifle: No change
Huge: Lowered recoil, smaller cone, less damage.
Shotgun: fix the awkward rate of fire. Increase cone add a few more pellets.

SIG552: Obvious fill between the M16 and Sniper, Moderate Damage and recoil, Mild-High Accuracy, RoF similar slightly slower than the M16. Scope will add range and precision to the weapon.
M3: A slightly more powerful, but slower Shotgun alternative. Shotgun with more damage, same pellets, smaller magazine, and slower pump action.

[Marauder8]

I don't know what gives you the impression that I'm disputing the function or history of (most) of the weapons.  I am commenting on how the balance could be improved.  Again, I may not have been playing this game when it was first released, but I've been playing it for over a year and have logged several hundreds of hours into it.  I still play it even today.  I assure you that both the gaps in the weapon functions and the weapon balance issues I have discussed have a very real impact on the game.

I was referring to:

Now you've got me started on weapon balance.  Great.

Yes, the standard shotgun is very strange.  I don't think it knows quite which role it's trying to fill.  I really have a hard time with it.  Sometimes I also have a tough time with the HUGE; the majority of the strategy is to keep the recoil down, but it's still generally a matter of luck.  Sometimes I can get six innocents in a very small time frame with it.  Other times it just shoots everywhere but where I'm aiming.  The sniper rifle, too, is a risky weapon to use just because it's so situational.  It only truly excels at ranges in which all other weapons are useless (you can use it at closer ranges, but the Deagle is better suited for such situations).  It's easy to end up being confronted at close range in TTT, and with the sniper, you better either pull off a headshot or be good with your secondary.

Mainly to help clarify roles for the weapons, and why they were as such.

[GrayScare0]

Creating a TTT 'Balanced' Server soon in addition to the customized server.

Proposed changes:
Glock Lower recoil, more damage, higher firing rate.
Deagle Slight Increase in body damage.
Pistol Considering increasing rate of fire, will test with and without.

Mac10: No change
M16: No change
Rifle: No change
Huge: Lowered recoil, smaller cone, less damage.
Shotgun: fix the awkward rate of fire. Increase cone add a few more pellets.

SIG552: Obvious fill between the M16 and Sniper, Moderate Damage and recoil, Mild-High Accuracy, RoF similar slightly slower than the M16. Scope will add range and precision to the weapon.
M3: A slightly more powerful, but slower Shotgun alternative. Shotgun with more damage, same pellets, smaller magazine, and slower pump action.

Be very careful with the adjustments.  The Deagle and pistol I think are fine if you use them correctly; you shouldn't be hitting the torso with the Deagle, and you shouldn't be using the pistol for anything other than to pick someone off.  The Glock definitely needs a change, but it shouldn't be made "better" than the pistol.  If you're going to add another shotgun, think very hard about how you will modify the current one.  Maybe decrease the damage, but increase the ROF.  Not sure.  You could probably get away with just tossing it completely.  The HUGE's damage is also pitiful, so I wouldn't screw around with that.  It's really just fine for its intended function (going on a rampage in tight quarters), but that function is not a particularly common one unless you're traitor, making the HUGE something you don't really want to have unless you've been planning something.  Really, if anything needs to be changed, it's the MAC-10.

[nrich588]

Maybe replacing the AWP with a Silenced Sniper, giving the traitor a long range option. Tossing the Jihad Bomb completely. TMP is a neat, will be playing around with that. I'm curious if BKU will share how I would change the bodies to show ammunition type instead of weapon. I may need help from a good lua coder or one of my admins that I am forcing to learn lua ( :P ). Again maybe not a lua thing? Not sure on a that. I may hire a lua coder too for now.