Detectives: Thoughts, ideas, balance, Holmes.

[worbat]

RE: detectives,

I like the concept at first glance. It has pretty massive consequences especially balance-wise, even if you don't consider possible equipment and just look at the fact that the amount of traitor suspects is reduced. I'll need to think about it.

Maybe you could post a separate thread where everyone can discuss the concept in more detail, toss around equipment ideas, talk about balancing measures, etc.

Ajunks idea.

Random thought: What if, each round, the game selects a detective or detectives (based on the number of traitors)? The scoreboard would show them as detectives to everyone, which would both help them investigate but make them huge targets as well. The detectives, I suppose, could have access to a variety of detective equipment made specifically for finding the traitors, like a kit to check fingerprints on discarded traitor items (knife, diffused c4) or a placeable surveillance camera.

Just a random thought. It came to me when I realized most murder games such as Mafia and Murder Handshake always have detectives as well as murderers. I think it would be really fun, and tGB could direct his item-making fury towards the innocents.

Jossis idea.

Something that might be possible is shifting already existing TTT features to Detective Tools. Naturally even traitors get these tools so you can't use them to expose people.

Some simple ideas could be:
Decomposition Scanner: Let's you know how long a person has been dead.
ID Binoculars: Player can ID a body from a distance, but no other information is revealed.
Coroner's Guide: Determine EXACT cause of death. (without this it could be damage types only such as bullets, blunt force, fire)

When a player starts they are either randomly given 1-2 Detective Items/Knowledge, or they can choose them. This way you need to communicate more and more than one person needs to view a body to get all the relevant data. It makes you rely on your partners. The biggest issue is how to balance. What information should ALWAYS be universal on inspection, and what should be dependent on the viewer, and what else could possibly be added that's not over powered? The name of the dead guy should always be given, if they are I or T, all T info should be given out, and some kind of cause of death even if generalized.

My input, why not have the detectives have a chance to also being a traitor, adding in extra suspission, do you trust the detectives or do you steer clear?

Post your ideas on the subject.

[Finparasite]

I have actually been thinking about this myself too, I think being a detective would make innocent gameplay alot more fun. Maybe then allmost every innocent would not just wait around eatch round untill they get traitor. I also think it must be so that you can be detective and traitor at the same time. 

[Bad King Urgrain]

I haven't had much time to think about it yet, but one of the balancing issues is how to make detective abilities useful, without making them a requirement. The innocent need to be able to win even if the detectives are complete morons. At the same time, decent and active detectives shouldn't mean the traitors are guaranteed to lose.

I think allowing detectives to be traitor would hurt some of the benefits. Having someone who is guaranteed to be clean and who has extra abilities means every innocent has something to gain from being near that guy and helping him. It gives some purpose to the innocent side. As soon as innocents cannot actually trust detectives, they're just going to be other innocents with extra items.

[UnInvincible]

Yeah I agree with not allowing detectives to be traitors, which means there should probably be a smaller percentage of detectives than traitors for balance's sake. So like 2 max?

I think Jossi is on the right track with detective items that allow for more detailed or more accessible identification of bodies. Maybe there could be some items that can counter certain traitor items, like an instant C4 disarmer?

[Darkest_97]

If your going to have detectives be able to find the traitors easier then youll have to do 1 of 2 things i think.
1. Give the detectives more information, which may be to easy to find the traitors. (overpowered id say)
2. Give innocents less information, and detectives just a tad more.
  Maybe only allow innocents to see certain things in body check, while detectives see all. And maybe detectives get a special equipment or 2.

Bottom line i dont think you should give detectives more and keep what the innocents get the same.

[CrazyChicken]

I don't like the idea too much, cause the detectives can't be disproved. If they say "Hey so and so is the traitor kill him" then everyone will go and kill them. No matter what they say they will be believed they could go down the list of innocents claiming that each one is a traitor until the only ones left are the detectives and the traitors.

It's like the loud people with mics who everyone believes and gets they to RDM each other until the end where they actually are the traitors. Only they will be confirmed as innocents.

[Officer_BUlbock]

Detectives are always known as innocent. Their competence on the other hand is less sure, someone who kills a person who turns out to be an innocent on the detective's advice is just as culpable as somebody who kills on anybody's advice. It's a problem that this isn't going to make any better or worse and if the detective is a jerk then that's just the way it goes.

Detectives ought to get credits based on time passing- maybe once every two minutes and a bonus point when you kill a traitor- as detecting gear is more useful the earlier you have it.

Ideas for equipment:
-Scanner that blips whenever somebody anywhere dies, and keeps a tally of how many have been killed since it was equipped
-Heat Sensor that tells how long it's been since a person's fired their weapon, silenced pistol doesn't reset the timer
-Medkit that can heal the detective or somebody else for 50 health
-Beacon that can be placed and picked up again that marks a point that everybody can see through walls, useful for rallying possible survivors
-Gavel Raygun that freezes the person it is hit with, prevents them from firing and makes them invincible for ten seconds, fast firing but limited ammunition, useful for calming down situations
-Final Will/Last Words that passes on all of his equipment to the first person who ID's his body if he's killed

[Ajunk]

I haven't had much time to think about it yet, but one of the balancing issues is how to make detective abilities useful, without making them a requirement. The innocent need to be able to win even if the detectives are complete morons. At the same time, decent and active detectives shouldn't mean the traitors are guaranteed to lose.

I feel that this isn't something which needs to be planned ahead of time so much as it is something which just needs to be looked out for. Simply introducing a "detective" who everyone knows is innocent doesn't break either of these rules, so as long as an innocent's own abilities aren't in any way reduced I think all's well.

Another thought for balance: Since detectives do hurt the traitor team, how about their team gets a credit for killing a detective?

[bat sauce]

I don't like this idea. What CrazyChicken pointed out is probably the main reason it won't work. Also, it'll probably be really frustrating for traitors having to deal with people who can find them out really easily. It's already hard enough to be a traitor as it is, especially with the stupid "reflection in eye" that doesn't make any sense whatsoever and kinda dumbs TTT way down.

[Bad King Urgrain]

Why this assumption that detectives would somehow find out traitors easily or know for sure who is one? They're not going to get a portable traitor tester.

I feel that this isn't something which needs to be planned ahead of time so much as it is something which just needs to be looked out for. Simply introducing a "detective" who everyone knows is innocent doesn't break either of these rules, so as long as an innocent's own abilities aren't in any way reduced I think all's well.

I'm just saying that in order to balance detectives, traitors shouldn't get general powerups that will help them even if there is no (useful) detective. Stuff like that.

It's better to have specific things like this:

Another thought for balance: Since detectives do hurt the traitor team, how about their team gets a credit for killing a detective?

Yes, I think worbat mentioned this as well in the other thread.

[bat sauce]

Having people in the game who are for sure, 100%, not traitors, is sort of dumb; it kind of breaks the spirit of TTT, where everyone can be your enemy and you don't know who you can trust. Maybe only have detectives enabled if the server has at least 16 people?

[Officer_BUlbock]

It changes the dynamic considerably but if the traitors:detectives is 1:1 then it doesn't lower the suspect pool by much, and having a person you can rely on makes things go on that much more of a paranoia-trip when they turn up dead.

Traitors getting credits for detective kills would be good as long as detectives get credits for traitor kills!

[Bad King Urgrain]

There would be fewer detectives than traitors, maybe 1-2 at the most common amount of 12-16 players, and 0 at lower ones.

[worbat]

I like bulbocks beacon idea. Could be very useful.
In my eyes all traitor equipment should be able to backfire on the detective and be usefull to the traitors, eg the beacon, everyone is in one area if it makes a 'ping' noise that could be used to mask a C4.

As for detective numbers:
1 detective 3 traitors
2 detectives 4 traitors.

Detectives should have the option to reveal that they are a detective or not. To stop people having to click a button every time maybe have a tickbox like in zombie master telling the server to remember their choice. If this was added then there might need to be a bonus for revealing you are a detective, +10 hp or something.

Could you have detective traitors? Maybe an option that kicks in if the game is lasting to long, a detective, if still alive, gets a message saying that $50 million has been transferd to their bank account if they turn on the terrorists, with a yes/no box. This could help stop people blindlessly following detectives around. (The money could = 5 points per kill or something)

They also need a differn't name, how many terrorist detectives do you know, why not call them fanatics or cell leaders ect, the detectives are there to stop the agents that are trying to take down the terrorist cell after all.

[Bad King Urgrain]

I've thought about the name thing. The nice part of "detective" is that it's immediately clear what their purpose is and it's very pronounceable (unlike, say, inquisitor). Perhaps "loyalist".

I don't see the point of not revealing who is detective, and letting them turn traitor etc. As I said, the whole point is to give innocents more purpose, a "rallying point" of sorts. These ideas cut that down. What's the point of that? As soon as innocents cannot see/trust their detectives, the detectives will be lone wolves fucking around with their nice equipment while the rest of the gang still propkills each other for kicks.

The numbers are about right, essentially 50% of the traitor count rounded down. With a minimum number of traitors, or perhaps a minimum number of players (call it the point where critical mass of boredom is reached on the innocent side).

[mysquirrel]

You know those Detectives should be called Agents, those Agents are like Traitor except for the Part that they have to kill Traitors.
They use same Equipment and even more specialised ones, like Traps.
They get a big disadvantage for killing Innocents. (Well, it already is a disadvantage if you kill a Innocent with no real Proof).
Those Agents can't show that they are Agents to anyone else, his special equipment (not traitor weapon) is always disguised as regular weapons or holstered.

To find out who Traitor is they can:

- Check Bodies (After you checked for example 5 Bodies who got killed by the same Traitor, he gets unravel to you)

I haven't actually though about more, except for the typical way, which is already implemented.

[Officer_BUlbock]

Getting traitor equipment (which is mainly for killing people without giving yourself away) is pointless for somebody trying to root out people, confuses the two roles and having to check 5 bodies and bam you know exactly who the traitor is is very strict and artificial.

I'd be down for them being called "loyalists" though "detectives" probably describes what they're doing better, and harkens to mafia games which is cool.  Unless of course they get to do some inquisitorial type stuff like putting the screws on somebody or public executions, but cool sci-fi detective gadgetry is more likely. Or a magnifying glass.

[DemiGod]

Or a magnifying glass.

This could lead to something interesting like being able to compare the markings on a bullet to the gun that fired it.

[Gamerofthegame]

Idea.

Detectives/whatever are not revealed for a set amount of time - Anywhere past two minutes.

The traitors can then buy a equipment that sets them as a detective in the scoreboard. Further, traitors who take this route get detective point stuff, as then it'd be to obvious - It wouldn't be all that helpful to traitors, anyway.

Shenanigans. The traitors could quite easily frame people, depending on what the detectives get. Obviously, though, this is something someone must get at the start or forego it, unless everyone is incredibly inattentive. Which is poosible.

[JossiRossi]

At no point should the innocence of a detective be in question. It destroys the purpose of the detective. My major concern is that the detective will get a hat right? Could even give him different ones based on his Karma.