Punishing Innocents killing Innocents

[TheCze]

So, one of the most annoying things happening in TTT when you are being killed by an innocent by a mere guess or no reason at all, also often refered as RDM.
Most people, including me, only kill someone if they have a good reason to e.g. seeing him walking away from a dead unidentified body, killing other people etc.

Unfortunately, there are a whole bunch of people who think "he is looking suspicious" is a valid reason to kill someone.

So how can you get people to only kill people if they are more sure that someone is a traitor?

I say, let's punish innocents that kill other innocents.

"But Cze" you might say "He is already punished! The other people won't trust him and most likely kill him now"
Of course that is true, but the idea behind my suggestion is to avoid the kill in the first place.

So my suggestion would be to lower the healthpoints of an innocent the round after he killed another innocent.
If a person kills many innocents the last round, his chances this round might not be that good and maybe he'll ruin one of the eagerly awaited traitor rounds.

This thread does not have to be only about this idea, feel free to suggest your own ideas on how to control people that are too trigger happy in here.


tl;dr: Reduce HP of an innocent who killed another innocent in the next round by 20HP per kill, suggest your own ideas about topic

[ball2hi]

This exact idea has been suggested before in the main thread lol. I believe BKU didnt like the idea.

[TheCze]

Yeah I supposed something like this has been suggested so far, anyway still post your own ideas.

[Secone]

There are a lot of incidents where someone kills an innocent because that person could have been doing something genuinely suspicious, I don't think they should be punished because of that

[Bad King Urgrain]

I don't remember it from the main thread, so it must have been a while ago if it did. Either way I am warming to the idea of a punishment system of some sort, because the more servers and players we're getting, the harder it's proving to be to admin them well.

One of my fundamental problems with the "sit out a round" punishment idea that came up a lot has always been that it creates a very clear line: "you can kill (for example) 2 innocents and it's fine, but if you kill 3 you have to sit out", so everyone just shoots 2 others.

So what I like about using HP is that it's gradual. You could easily add the rule that if you kill so many that your HP is below zero, you do sit out the round (effectively killed by your karma). You could have the penalty grow exponentially with the number of innocents killed. Point is, it's not a GOOD/BAD, black and white kind of thing.

What I'm wondering is, is it effective enough? Weapons are already very deadly, how much does 20 HP matter in practice? It primarily affects you if you're traitor, and even then if you get in a firefight you're already in trouble anyway so it wouldn't change that much.

Perhaps this reveals an issue with HP, and being hurt should have a side effect like slowing down. Works pretty well in L4D.

A damage modifier might be another option, like doing 10% less damage for every TK. Quite ironic: if you kill innocents, your ability to kill people at all would go down.

There are a lot of incidents where someone kills an innocent because that person could have been doing something genuinely suspicious, I don't think they should be punished because of that

Perhaps it's desirable to have innocents a bit less eager to shoot. If you kill one innocent it wouldn't be the end of the world, it would just have actual consequences rather than only a score number going down. Just like it has consequences for the guy you shot. Right now, the killer gets off rather easy: he typically gets to play for the rest of the round. Especially on the less strict (typically newer) servers, innocents killing innocents is so common you don't even raise that much suspicion.

Of course it would alter the balance in favour of traitors initially, though I'm not sure it would last once people start actually using evidence, and factors like the number of traitors and the credit reward could be slightly modified to compensate.

Whatever happens, servers will be able to toggle it.

[Marauder8]

It could be a kind of traitor-detection though. For example:

"Hey you, kill that guy, and if you lose health, you are innocent"

I dont like that kind of thing. It also proves if a person is innocent in situations like this:

Player 1 tells people to stay away from X or he will kill them.
Player 2 walks to point X and is killed.
Player 3 notices he lost health, therefore is innocent.

[DemiGod]

I think the damage modifying punishment would be the most effective considering the mentioned flaws with the health decreasing system

[that guy]

link=topic=9379.msg345430#msg345430 date=1261510774]
It could be a kind of traitor-detection though. For example:

"Hey you, kill that guy, and if you lose health, you are innocent"

I dont like that kind of thing. It also proves if a person is innocent in situations like this:

Player 1 tells people to stay away from X or he will kill them.
Player 2 walks to point X and is killed.
Player 3 notices he lost health, therefore is innocent.

So my suggestion would be to lower the healthpoints of an innocent the round after he killed another innocent.

[Marauder8]

Oh, didn't see that part.

[that guy]

[ball2hi]

The way I see it is that people can try and PROVOKE others to kill them. Example, someone shoots a pistol shot JUST above another innocents head to try and provoke the player into killing him, or hell, he even shoots him in the head. Next is, player is hiding in a room and someone is persistent in wanting to get in, he warns him for 60sec straight but has to end up killing him because he just goes in.

EDIT-

Forgot to mention the AFK's we all know and love. Most of the time there are not admins on, so most servers follow the rule of "13:30" or "13:00" to kill afks. Im not entirely sure if prop killing affects your score but that is how I kill AFK's because I believe its the only way to do so without getting a negative score, but its still very dangerous and leaves your vulnerable while carrying a prop.

[DemiGod]

Which is why the damage modifying system is superior as it doesn't kill/hurt the terrorist that has been provoked to kill another

[that guy]

As said 100 times before the main thing we need is good admins because a damage modifier is stupid because if someone gives a real reason to kill someone and he was innocent you get screwed over and what Xbye said you will have people who are greifers just to get other people screwed over.

[DemiGod]

There's no way we can get a 24/7 admin surveillance system so we don't have any real solutions

[that guy]

Well the main thing we could do is get at least 3 admins per timezone but unless we find a better way to punish innocents who were just killing as opposed to having a reason to kill someone thats the best we got.

[Bad King Urgrain]

Provoking is an issue, but there will always be griefers. Right now it's already really easy to be an ass. In fact, you could already provoke someone several times and then run to an admin. Admin looks at server log, sees the guy killed you repeatedly, and bans him.

The difference is that with a punishment system, normal players will have more of a reason not to play badly. In the "old days" everyone had a good sense of how the game was supposed to be played and they wouldn't play badly because they knew it was less fun if everyone did. That's not so much the case anymore, and it's an effect that snowballs: if one guy shoots you at a mild suspicion and gets away with it, then you're going to be more trigger happy, especially if you're not a veteran.

So the problem is shifting from just griefers and blatant RDMers to more and more people playing the game in a way that hurts it for everyone involved.

Anyway, it could be linked to damage rather than just kills, so you can't do obvious things like intentionally shoot someone to "near death" and then stop and get away with it. Camping a room will be a worse tactic than it already is. Working together will be more important because you can spread the karma when, as a group, you decide to kill someone (people with a clean sheet could take the shot, or everyone could fire so the penalty gets divided up).

As said 100 times before the main thing we need is good admins

I've tried the admin angle so far, it's worked well for a long time, but it's not working well anymore. It doesn't scale to more servers/players.

I can see a scenario happen where well-administered servers disable the system when admins are present and enable it again when there aren't any.

[ball2hi]

There's no way we can get a 24/7 admin surveillance system so we don't have any real solutions

The closes way to getting that is having me as admin. I know many of you dont like me as admin but Im sure as hell on a lot hahaha. Also, the punishment system might hurt traitors. Example: Round1: Innocent, I kill 2 Innocents, my health reduced by 40 next round. Round2: Im traitor, I now have 40 less health due to mistakes made last round.

Instead of using a "Innocents killed" for the system, why not use the point system? The more negative your score the more % of health you lose.

The major issue I see is when innocents have to kill AFKs. Grievers are a big issue but that can be fixed by admins banning. AFKs can not.

*Slaps knee* Here's an idea. How about living players can make a vote as to have the ability to kill another player without being punished for that round. If 75% of the living players vote (Excluding traitors) to kill X innocent for w/e reason, they wont be punished. That would solve the AFK issue. Make the votes anonymous though.Edit:
  Or better yet, make the vote system pop up something on the players screen that says "You have been voted AFK. Please Click the 3 buttons below or you will be put into spectator mode." If they click the buttons within... 20sec then they wont be put into spectator only mode. Although make sure that IF they're afk have them killed FIRST and then put them into spectator mode so that we can inspect their body to find if they were traitor or innocent.

[Darkest_97]

Instead of using a "Innocents killed" for the system, why not use the point system? The more negative your score the more % of health you lose.

The major issue I see is when innocents have to kill AFKs. Grievers are a big issue but that can be fixed by admins banning. AFKs can not.

*Slaps knee* Here's an idea. How about living players can make a vote as to have the ability to kill another player without being punished for that round. If 75% of the living players vote (Excluding traitors) to kill X innocent for w/e reason, they wont be punished. That would solve the AFK issue. Make the votes anonymous though.

I was going to suggest using the point system, then one accidental kill, or someone doing something stupid and you have to shoot them, wont necessarily set you back.

And a vote may or may not be a good idea. Because then everyone could vote to kill someone they dont like and not get punished for it, unless you time the players when they stop moving to see if there afk.

[ball2hi]

I was going to suggest using the point system, then one accidental kill, or someone doing something stupid and you have to shoot them, wont necessarily set you back.

And a vote may or may not be a good idea. Because then everyone could vote to kill someone they dont like and not get punished for it, unless you time the players when they stop moving to see if there afk.

Read the 2nd part I added to it. I know it still has flaws with "Grieving" but its the best thing we can probably do without admins. I'd also like to point out that the Point System just seems so lonely. Nobody cares about the points entirely from what I've seen, they wont believe someone with 56 points over someone with -16 points and so on. I believe we should do something to add on to the point system, make it so that someone with high points is something to actually pay attention to and want.

[Tyrant T100]

Yeah I'm encountering a lot of rdmers and griefers now on unadmined servers, perhaps the worse kind is the one that shoots you, switches weapons and claims to be innocent, if you shoot back at them he starts yelling "RDM RDM" over and over.