Who can be RDMed, and who might already be ruining this game mode.

[Ajunk]

I used to think the best way to play the game was to only kill if you had solid proof, but unfortunately, everyone's gotten smarter. If you have concrete proof in the truest sense of the phrase, the traitor(s) almost definitely are aware and will attack you first. This is why the most intelligent decisions are always the ones which have margin of error.

[JossiRossi]

I wish I fully understood why but I tend to have an odd intuition in TTT.

I will have as good a proof as I can have implicating a person. Ajunk was the recipient of this the other day. Basically I will personally be SURE that someone is a traitor. They fit a certain profile, like holding the correct weapon of a recent kill and being in a certain area. So I kill them with say a 75% chance certainty. And hey guess what, I was right! I got a traitor. Only problem? I killed the wrong traitor. They didn't actually do the crime I was investigating.

I don't know why but I keep doing this, I keep killing traitors, but in a way the wrong ones. It's strange and annoying. I think it might almost be that "something out of place" sense that I'm sure I'm not the only one who is developing. In Ajunk's case someone was killed in the open and I looked up and saw him jumping from one building to another, at the time it seemed odd considering what was going on, as the round was still pretty fresh. I dunno. Now I am just blathering.

[Broseidon, of the Brocean]

I don't think a sit out vote would work, because, as someone else already mentioned, it would be greatly abused and people would use it on EVERYONE who kills them. I think the game mechanics are fine the way they are, and I don't think any alteration of them would be necessary or even useful to combat the RDM issue we are discussing. The main problem is the players, but more specifically, the ones who enforce the rules on the servers (or try to).

The other day, as I was playing, I discovered another side effect of the problem we are discussing. There was a guy on a server who was just killing people randomly. He'd walk up to people and just shoot them in the head, and it almost seemed like he was a traitor, except that he killed traitors too. He killed more innocents than traitors. In other words, he was actually a real RDMer. However, when I started telling him why he shouldn't do that, and how he could get banned for that, a whole bunch of other people just exploded and started screaming at me for crying RDM "every time" I got killed as a traitor (and I wasn't even a traitor that round). That's right: The term "RDM" has been falsely used so much, and people have falsely cried wolf so much, that now the real RDMers mostly get ignored because people have gotten too used to the fact that when people cry RDM, it's because they failed as traitors and want the winner to be punished (and 99% of the time, that is the case).

Like I said, the problem is in the players, not the game design. I was playing on one of the TDR servers earlier, and for a lot of the players (mainly the popular kids, AKA "regulars"), every single time they die as traitors they will say something like "I'm gonna go get the admin" or "that was such an RDM." In fact, there have already been two incidents in which I've been temporarily banned from a TDR server because I killed a traitor who just so happened to be one of the popular kids of the group, so then he went and bitched up a storm about it to an admin, used "being a regular" as leverage for his credibility, and got me banned for "RDMing" based on his word alone. It was a 5 minute ban, but still pretty damn stupid and shows that there is a serious problem with the way things are now (by the way, if anyone ever encounters any douchebags by the names of MidKnight, Mr. Fuckles, [nL]proxE or Megatron, please feel free to give them a smack).

Aside from that, I've noticed that many admins (on all servers, unfortunately) tend to abuse their powers of "enforcing" the RDM rule, and use it solely as a means of getting revenge on the people who skillfully and stealthily defeat them when they are traitors: in one case, a traitor went straight to calling me an RDMer when I killed him 10 minutes into the round, and even though multiple people backed me up, he said "well this time, the butthurt is an admin" and basically forced me to spend the better part of the next round convincing him how I knew he was the traitor. This is where this game mode is heading. This is a great game, but these people with these rules are going to turn TTT into a game like jailbreak or roleplay where the players have to spend more time arguing about kills than actually playing.

[Shadow_Archmagi]

Now I am just blathering.

I had that happen.

I was considering deagling this guy who was holed up in a store, but just then Rotinaj came up behind me. I didn't even notice, but later, when Rotinaj was revealled and killed, I was also killed for being his ally when I had never been aware of his presence!

[Milo]

I wish I fully understood why but I tend to have an odd intuition in TTT.

I will have as good a proof as I can have implicating a person. Ajunk was the recipient of this the other day. Basically I will personally be SURE that someone is a traitor. They fit a certain profile, like holding the correct weapon of a recent kill and being in a certain area. So I kill them with say a 75% chance certainty. And hey guess what, I was right! I got a traitor. Only problem? I killed the wrong traitor. They didn't actually do the crime I was investigating.

I don't know why but I keep doing this, I keep killing traitors, but in a way the wrong ones. It's strange and annoying. I think it might almost be that "something out of place" sense that I'm sure I'm not the only one who is developing. In Ajunk's case someone was killed in the open and I looked up and saw him jumping from one building to another, at the time it seemed odd considering what was going on, as the round was still pretty fresh. I dunno. Now I am just blathering.

Moral of the story: Ajunk should be killed on sight no matter what.

[Shadow_Archmagi]

Moral of the story: Ajunk should be killed on sight no matter what.

This is also true.

[atomicthumbs]

I think you can be RDM'd as a traitor.

HOWEVER. I also think the only valid time to yell that you've been RDM'd is when someone kills you when you have done literally nothing.

Example: start the round, get selected as a traitor, run in a group with everyone else, someone shotguns you in the face.

Example 2: turn a corner in the basement of ttt_office, someone shotguns you in the face.

[that guy]

I think you can be RDM'd as a traitor.

No.

[Rotinaj]

You can't be RDMd as a traitor. Too often have I picked up on subtle hints and killed traitors only to be accused of RDMing. Especially if people have died and left parts of your name in their last words.

In fact, the term RDM is used far too frequently. Seriously, this should be kept only to circumstances where someone has found it necessary to murder every person they come across.

[ball2hi]

You can be RDM'd as traitor, end of discussion. Only problem is... is it an RDM or was there evidence to killing the selected person whom was found out to be a traitor in death.

[Bad King Urgrain]

The term I personally use when I'm traitor and I get shot by someone who decided I was suspicious without discussing this with anyone and without me threatening him in any way, is "kinda lame." Because it's kinda lame, but not something to whine about.

[atomicthumbs]

Guys, I'm not saying that when someone kills you with an unreasonable suspicion, that that's RDMing. I'm saying that when you turn a corner within the first fifteen or thirty seconds of a round and someone shotguns you, or if they shoot you in the back, that's RDMing - when they have literally no possible way of knowing you're a traitor, except looking at your corpse.

[Broseidon, of the Brocean]

The term I personally use when I'm traitor and I get shot by someone who decided I was suspicious without discussing this with anyone and without me threatening him in any way, is "kinda lame." Because it's kinda lame, but not something to whine about.

Exactly! I'm glad that the guy who actually made this mod can understand. As someone said earlier, real RDMers are obvious enough that you can figure them out without requiring a witch hunt and a bitch-fest that lasts the better part of the following round. If the only guy who claims you RDMed him is the traitor, then that alone doesn't make you an RDMer. More likely it means the dead traitor is Xbye a sore loser. That's really all there is to it. And yes, it's true that sometimes RDMers get lucky and kill traitors, and yes it's true that being a traitor and getting killed within 15 seconds of the round starting is really frustrating. What I'm asking is that those kills do not be officially recognized by admins as RDMs, in order to cut down on the bitching, and stop making every innocent feel like they're required to be pussies until it's their turn to be traitor. In other words, let the whiners whine all they want but let their complaints fall on deaf ears, with their complaints being answered with something along the lines of "No, you were a traitor and he was an innocent. Save the bitching for when you get killed by one of your own." If an innocent kills another innocent, then they can try and work out whether it was a paranoia kill, an accident, or an RDM. It works well if when a traitor is killed by an innocent, it's not open to official discussion whether that innocent broke a rule by killing him. I liked tGB's idea as a replacement term...call it "kinda lame" or "lucky kill." But don't suggest that someone needs to be punished for winning. When you play Counter-Strike, do you tell the admins to kick the terrorists for planting the bomb without reasonable suspicion?

The funny (yet sad) part is that nowadays, people seem to cry RDM only when they get killed as traitors. The new definition of RDM is "a traitor being killed by an innocent who is not a regular or admin of the server, and not liking it."

What's all this shit about "proof" and "evidence?" TTT isn't about American police officers in a small town patrolling around and being completely unaware that there is a murderer dressed as one of them. TTT is about a group of terrorists who know that there are traitors among them and want to kill the traitors before they get killed. You're not civilized, professional and lawful men. You're a bunch of paranoid bad guys who put their self preservation as their highest priority, and you don't have time to give your buddies the benefit of the doubt because you already know that some of them are out to get you! You shouldn't have to hesitate before shooting someone whom you're sure is about to shoot you, because you're more worried about dying than wrongfully killing a teammate! When we're with a friendly crowd and we play the game that way, it's much more fun.

Honestly, some of the most fun times I've had on TTT were late at night when there were less than 10 people on and no admins. Or if there were admins, they were the cool ones who know the difference between an RDMer and a crafty innocent, and can appreciate people making occasional mistakes, all because they actually like this gamemode for what it is and know how to make it fun, and they don't suffer from severe emotional problems like certain... other people we know.

[Wat?]

You can be RDM'ed as a traitor.
Revenge kills for instance when they are jsut too stupid to understand that their own actions made them look like a traitor.
Or the times you are shot right after round start, before you even have a gun.

But mostly some people are just too trigger happy, and end up killing innocents and traitors with rather poor reasons.

But I also think that there are people with cheats that allow them to see who is the traitor as once in a while you encounter people who dont kill innocents, but there is seemingly no reason when they shoot the traitor, and It happens round after round. and even when you are spectating them you cant see the reason.

[JossiRossi]

I don't think it's cheats, it's more likely ghosting. The spectators know who the killer is and one of them tells a living player who the traitors are. It's an issue that is hard to detect and can only be solved by observant admins. If I ever catch people doing it, that's a ban right there.

[Marauder8]

I don't think it's cheats, it's more likely ghosting. The spectators know who the killer is and one of them tells a living player who the traitors are. It's an issue that is hard to detect and can only be solved by observant admins. If I ever catch people doing it, that's a ban right there.

Unless they hand out the wrong information >_>

[ibor10]

I don't think it's cheats, it's more likely ghosting.

...and ghosting isnt cheating.. how?

[AndyTheGeeky]

...and ghosting isnt cheating.. how?

I believe Jossi defined cheating in this instance as hacking.

[deathscent]

Bro, with saying that traitors can't be RDM'd is like saying that if we start the map, and I kill one person randomly and happen to strike the 1/15 odds of hitting the right guy, assuming server's full, that it's not RDM'ing.
Or, hell, that if I decide to get a HUGE and spray wildly at everyone I see, that it's not RDM'ing.

RDM'ing means you've killed someone without a valid reason, or a VERY poor reason. I was RDM'ed for acting "suspicious". I was typing. My mic was fucked. He shot me, I died. Yes, I was traitor, but I was 'claiming' to be with the guy that shot me as I died. This IS RDM'ing, especially  FIFTEEN SECONDS INTO THE ROUND AFTER PEOPLE WERE DECLARED TRAITORS, FOUR OTHER PEOPLE STANDING BY US. He was given warning.

Every traitor and innocent act differently. Some traitors act like you might think an innocent does, and some innocents seem to act like a traitor. Then there are those that are just outright terrible and you can spot them off the bat.

Then there are those traitors that use mic effectively, and can often leave clues as to who they are quite cleverly.

I agree that yes, some rounds drag on for too long, and that yes, sometimes stupid things happen. No, this isn't who caught who. This is observing your environment, letting you become a better "spy", letting you explore the realms of assassinating people in a sort of large group of people; it's a complciated thing, and can be done well if actually tried. It's also trying to understand how people do things, looking for little ticks, this and that, and hoping that Gary's Mod's hit detection actually works. I was traitor four times in a row today, and guess what? Twice I died to RDM'ing. I don't care most of the time, but sometimes it stands out.

Also, I need to play with you guys... I act like a traitor ALL THE TIME. It makes people hate me when they kill me to lose points, and I get to yell RDM'ING BITCH!


-Stork ;3

[Andyp]

Let's say you're running across a field and suddenly you get sniped in the head. Or you're running down a hall, you turn a corner and a guy shoots you in the face. You think "Oh wow, that totally came out of nowhere, how could he have known? What a lucky bastard. I feel really frustrated, and in my blind fit of rage and disbelief, I'm going to assume that he's just some idiot who's shooting at random people and just so happened to hit a traitor."

Well that's why you ask people why they killed you, if they cant come up with a proper answer beyond the pathetic: "i had a feeling" excuse then yeah it's an rdm.

And trust me, nothing is more annoying than getting killed as a traitor when you really havnt done anything. I use little tricks for traitors, well to be fair i just vocalise all the time telling people who im with and questioning their actions, ie: why are you following me?
There are also other little tricks such as going round a corner into a deserted alley and seeing if they follow, since they have no reason to come with you to an empty alley, that makes them extremely suspicious and ill make sure to avid them or keep a close eye on them, but it doesnt give me the right to shoot them on that evidence.
Besides ive been followed by innocents before and got a bit jumpy and shot them.

I do agree that the term rdm is used way too much and some people use it for anything. I wont lie ive had some rage times, i think about 3, however every single one was where someone has blatently rdmed me as a traitor not long into the round for the most pathetic of reasons or often for no reason atall.