[Picture inside] Is it possible to code a color-coded damage log?

[TheSlyder]

Is it possible to accomplish that kind of damage log? Can you imagine how helpful it would be?

(Red lines are RDM, orange lines are kills, class-colors are self explanatory)

[Charles445]

If the console can be color coded, then I don't see why not.
That seems extremely helpful actually

[sniperduck]

Damn, this would be so damn helpful.

[Bad King Urgrain]

You would have to replace the current damage log system with something a lot more complex, because console messages sent from the server can't be coloured. The client has to do that.

[Joey Skylynx]

Not to mention, saving logs wouldn't show the color-coded damage.

[Mr. Gash]

Honestly, I wouldn't like it.

[TheSlyder]

You would have to replace the current damage log system with something a lot more complex, because console messages sent from the server can't be coloured. The client has to do that.

So it is possible? Is it something that would be extremely complex? Can that modification be done on an individual server, or is it something that has to be done within the game's base-code, such as a new version release? (I don't do a lot of game modification, so I'm not 100% sure how it works.)

I apologize for all the obnoxious questions, I'm asking them on behalf of the server I frequent, and while I'm willing to help them do this stuff, I don't actually have much knowledge or experience with coding things.

Not to mention, saving logs wouldn't show the color-coded damage.

If you're saving the log then you're not pressed for time when looking through it. Most of the work I do in the damagelog has to be done quickly, in-between rounds, and that's what this idea is intended for. Being able to seek out RDM and read the damagelog at a glance without having to scan the entire document for every little thing would be invaluable.

[Bad King Urgrain]

The problem is that the damage log code stores the log as text, and just tells the engine to send each line of the log to the console of a certain player when needed. Adding colour means you would have to replace how the log is stored and how the text is sent. You'd need a custom method that either sends colour information, or that only sends more abstract information (killer/victim name and status, etc) that the client then generates a coloured line of text from.

The long and short of it is you have to replace the whole damage log system with something of your own that is built to do colours. It could be done as a server modification, like almost anything can.

I definitely won't be doing it in a TTT update, because I now feel the damage log was a mistake. The only reason it still exists is that removing it would be useless, as servers would instantly add it back in. Still, you should not expect damagelog updates.

[Handy_man]

The problem is that the damage log code stores the log as text, and just tells the engine to send each line of the log to the console of a certain player when needed. Adding colour means you would have to replace how the log is stored and how the text is sent. You'd need a custom method that either sends colour information, or that only sends more abstract information (killer/victim name and status, etc) that the client then generates a coloured line of text from.

The long and short of it is you have to replace the whole damage log system with something of your own that is built to do colours. It could be done as a server modification, like almost anything can.

I definitely won't be doing it in a TTT update, because I now feel the damage log was a mistake. The only reason it still exists is that removing it would be useless, as servers would instantly add it back in. Still, you should not expect damagelog updates.

It would just be a useless function to add you are correct, but i don't think the damagelog is useless i use it all the time it helps you get the big picture in cases where one kid is screaming at another sure the actual information of amounts etc is useless but who hit who first is very useful in cases of RDM etc. Just saying i know you said you arn't going to change it or anything :)

[Bad King Urgrain]

I am not saying the damagelog is useless, I'm saying I don't like what it did to the game and the community.

The only thing I said is useless is removing the damagelog (because people would just edit it back in).

[bigbadboo]

I am not saying the damagelog is useless, I'm saying I don't like what it did to the game and the community.

The only thing I said is useless is removing the damagelog (because people would just edit it back in).

What is the downside of the damagelog?

[GrayScare0]

What is the downside of the damagelog?

Well, this is GMOD.  The player base is not exactly the most mature.  People take the game the wrong way.  They tend to feel like they are owed justice without trying to understand the position/rationale of other players.

If a round is screwed up as a traitor or if they feel a kill on them is unjustified in general, they whine and push for a ban.
They just want to kill people like it's some sort of deathmatch, which is why they like being traitor so much.
They don't care about the difference between an accident and deliberation, even when legitimate thinking is involved on the part of the other player (example: Player B thought Player A killed Player C because he was standing next to Player C's hanged, unidentified corpse; however Player A was in reality innocent).
They fail to comprehend even remotely complex strategies or psychology (validity of confirmed status, the entire concept of framing, etc).

This immature line of thinking leads to the belief that damage logs are a substitute for witnessing the kill/damage.  It is not.  It does not account for deliberation, strategy, communication, or any other factor beyond the damage that it logs.  The game is deeper than just a sequence of damage.  Perhaps Player A shot Player B because Player B was trying to subtly attack Player C's status as a confirmed innocent, when Player A had actually witnessed Player C kill a traitor?  Maybe Player A shot Player B because Player B was following him the entire round with a shotgun, or Player B ran right over an unidentified body?  There are so many situations in which it means nothing.  Legitimate kills do not always follow the "a traitor shoots, then an innocent shoots back" pattern.  If the innocent is clever, there's a good chance he can shoot the traitor first and still be justified (even if the traitor had no kills/damage), but through the damage log, it still looks like the innocent started the whole thing.

In my opinion, the damage log should only be consulted when the concern is damage alone (or only for that portion of the analysis).  For an example of why it should only be used this way, maybe Player A saw Player B shoot near Player C, but Player D (a confirmed traitor) was nearby (Player C was in a firefight with him), and it was hard to tell if Player B was shooting at Player C or Player D.  In this situation, it can clear things up a little bit, but it is still possible that Player B was trying to hit either player (regardless of who he actually hit).  Here the damage log can help clarify the situation at least a little bit when combined with a grasp on the "layout" of the firefight and how the firefight came to pass.  Still, in this situation, I don't think anyone could really be at fault for an accident (it would be easy to misinterpret what's going on or to otherwise fail to see the reality of the situation when the waters are muddied by false call-outs over mic and other evidence).

I know that the concept of the damage log being for damage only is simple, but people just don't get it.  They think it is universal; that it can explain all firefights, and that most instances of an innocent shooting first are instances of "RDM".  This is simply not so.  Witnessing (or at least having a video of the whole thing) can't really have a substitute.

If the community as a whole were a little more mature (focused more on the game itself) and skillful, the damage log would not be as depended on as it is.  Instead, people interpret RDM way too liberally and fail to recognize any strategy beyond the most basic ones.  It is a sad truth, but it is so.

I'll let this sit here to demonstrate the common attitude of perceived RDM and justice:

If you're saving the log then you're not pressed for time when looking through it. Most of the work I do in the damagelog has to be done quickly, in-between rounds, and that's what this idea is intended for. Being able to seek out RDM and read the damagelog at a glance without having to scan the entire document for every little thing would be invaluable.

[Handy_man]

Grayscare you fail to take into account admins who are not complete derps and actually know how to analyze a situation using both fact (damage logs) and other information (player chat, own accounts of the situation) that can lead to the correct outcome. I use damage log all the time why? because it tells me where a possible incident occurred regarding one player killing another for no reason at all.

I also question people mid game if i have the chance, just asking little things getting a better understanding of what happened before any decision, i mostly always question accounts where a traitor is killed (without obvious reasoning) No one should take the sole damage log and make decisions without as much backstory as possible while in game.

While i play a game in the rare instance that i know of a traitor and they don't know i know, i make a decision call them out and they go down fighting or i shoot them first without saying a word, most people also make this decision and my (and what should be most) understanding of this possibility for a player to make that decision is taken into account where a person simply looking at the damage log can not gleam such information.

Just try and take into account intelligence of administrators and the fact that damage logs can be used correctly if in the correct hands, give people more credit and stop playing in places where you can buy admin. I'm not saying even the best of admins can get this correct all the time but for most of the time they can use the damage logs to a decent advantage.

[GrayScare0]

Grayscare you fail to take into account admins who are not complete derps and actually know how to analyze a situation using both fact (damage logs) and other information (player chat, own accounts of the situation)

the damage log can help clarify the situation at least a little bit when combined with a grasp on the "layout" of the firefight and how the firefight came to pass

It's not completely useless, but it is depended on far too much.  Regarding the community, I would say that 90% of pushes for justice that I have experienced have been far too hasty, and reliance on the damage logs only hurts matters.  People whine and complain all the time in TTT, and there certainly are some legitimate trolls out there, but almost all the time they're whining about nothing.  I prefer to just watch over the server and see what's happening rather than believe the whiners' stories or the damage log.  That's all I really meant.  Punishing should be based on nature (trying to play or mess around?), not on actions (often accidents).

Regardless, RDM isn't a big deal in general.  People get way too worked up.  It's best to just ban the horrible players and leave the rest alone.

[TheSlyder]

I actually agree with your point. The reliance on the damagelog takes a lot of the advanced meta-game out of the mode, but it's still a very useful tool for admins. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to track down troublemakers without it.

I think you misunderstood what I was getting at.  The way it works on the server I'm an admin on is Player A complains to me that Player B RDMed them. I always ask for an explanation of the setting and circumstance. Often I can dispel the complaint right then and there by saying "Well he clearly killed you because X" and the damage log never even has to be used, but often it's more complicated than that, and the accused party will deny having killed that person, or even deny shooting at them. In that situation the log is necessary to get to the bottom of things, and it's usually a pretty unpleasant process to scan through the whole log looking for Player B's name just to check to see if he did, in fact, attack Player A and address the situation.

I don't think it's something that should be used 100% of the time, but sometimes it's necessary if you want to be able to moderate the troublemakers on a server.


Urgrain, thanks a lot for the helpful insight. I'm not sure if this is a project that I'll be able to pull off, but I definitely appreciate the insight to the process.

[GrayScare0]

the accused party will deny having killed that person, or even deny shooting at them.

Thanks, this is the kind of example I was trying to think of but could not.  Yes, in that situation damage logs are quite useful, though in my experience most players aren't stupid enough to deny damage when they know I have damage log access (but a few still do every now and then).  I certainly agree with your rationale, though you should know that there are individuals out there that are far more reliant on the logs.

[Rotinaj]

This is something that made me stop playing TTT completely. There's way too much admin intervention. I wish I could say that it should be at the discretion of the server owner and admins, but it's obviously a responsibility they can't handle.

[Nel]

I agree, I remember that one server we were on where the admin would slap me for damage that I accidentally did to an innocent with a pistol shot when i missed the traitor.  It happened every round to everyone too, people are going to make mistakes in judgment, and they shouldn't be punished for it.  The admins should really only intervene if someone is purposefully trying to hurt other innocents while innocent.

[Rotinaj]

That's every server I've played on recently. Just the other day when I played I framed an innocent by leaving him in a room with a corpse. Another innocent approached and naturally assumed he was the traitor, only to then be kicked for RDM. This is absurd.

[Citizen_001]

If you shoot other innocents as an innocent the only punishment should be getting shot.