a balanced anonymous detective idea + related class idea. (tl;dr ahead)

[Bad King Urgrain]

Have you considered this:

An issue is that traitors would not know when a covert detective scans them, so that detective could quietly scan and suddenly shoot the traitor. Currently, traitors can try to avoid being near detectives to prevent that. I think showing a message to traitors who get scanned could help there. They could then get out of dodge ASAP.

If traitors know they got scanned, they know they did not get RDM'd. The concept could be powered up by showing the traitors for every DNA scan a detective does, where that scan is coming from. So it would show the detective where the traitor is, and the traitor where the detective is.

Currently, in the traitor vs detective matchup, traitors are overpowered in a sense. They can run up and blast a detective in the face, after all, and often do. By making detectives harder to eliminate, it opens up balancing room for letting traitors have more options (by carrying two equipment weapons perhaps).

[OctaneHugo]

So, would Traitors only get to see when a covert detective is scanning them? I'm honestly not too fond of the idea overall, but yeah.

[Bad King Urgrain]

For consistency, they would see it when both types of detective scan them.

I'm interested in all possible arguments against the idea. It's far from certain that it will happen.

[Rectal Exambot]

Maybe to prevent the knifing a detective could buy a razorback

[JossiRossi]

Maybe to prevent a detective wasting a credit every round for their own protection instead of buying useful tools, they could be immune to knives, perhaps thanks to the armor they are given?

[Rotinaj]

If he adds in covert detectives they don't need to be immune to knifing. I really like the idea of being undercover. Sounds like it will work now.

[Jamini]

Urgrain, I think your idea (aboud Detectives starting off appearing as an Innocent and having a button option to reveal themselves.) is both excellent and worthy of it's own thread. Most people won't bother reading through the entire post, so they won't weigh in on it, especially since the OP's idea is too complicated to implement neatly (and somewhat silly to boot.) If nothing else, it would be nice for server owners to have the cvar for "anonymous" detectives.

Right now detectives are only useful for buying health stations on almost all maps, and often are the very first to get killed by the Traitors. This could fix that eaisly.

(Strangly enough, I had the exact same idea when reading the OPs post. I am glad you posted this idea instead of me.)

[Braegh]

Have you considered this:If traitors know they got scanned, they know they did not get RDM'd. The concept could be powered up by showing the traitors for every DNA scan a detective does, where that scan is coming from. So it would show the detective where the traitor is, and the traitor where the detective is.

Currently, in the traitor vs detective matchup, traitors are overpowered in a sense. They can run up and blast a detective in the face, after all, and often do. By making detectives harder to eliminate, it opens up balancing room for letting traitors have more options (by carrying two equipment weapons perhaps).

When you're talking about the traitor vs. detective matchup, you do have to take into account the 5+ innocents too. Rarely does it happen there's nobody around the detective to see or even hear such a kill. Also, the detective KNOWS they're the primary target, for two reasons: they've got the DNA scanner, and they're confirmed not to be a traitor. Catching a detective by surprise is far harder than doing the same with a random innocent.

The problem with telling the traitors that they got scanned is that it also closes the option for the detective(or even an innocent, as I occasionally do) to not ID an unidentified body and scan it instead, catching the traitor completely unaware of the fact that he's exposed. (There's also a possible social exploit: if the traitor knows he got DNA scanned, asking him for the message/location of the scan could have him reveal himself.)

As far as I've seen, the most important part of TTT isn't aiming well or the ability to deceive people, it's information and controlling it. By the nature of the game, the traitors start out with the advantage that they know who's out to kill them and the innocents don't. As the game progresses, people will be gathering all kinds of information through observation, enabling them to puzzle together who the traitors are eventually.

The DNA Scanner is perhaps the single most powerful info-gathering tool in the game, but it can be circumvented by traitors who actually take the time to be properly sneaky. Telling the traitor they've been found essentially tells them to throw stealth and deception out the window and just go Rambo.

Wouldn't showing DNA scans in the post-round log be an option, possibly with the scan's initial distance shown?

[Bad King Urgrain]

It's easier than you'd expect to snipe a Detective in a group of innocents using a silenced pistol for example. And Detectives do find themselves alone (and knifed), because innocents generally care more about their own short-term well-being. Theoretically they should protect him, as it is in their long term interest, in practice it's not the first thing on their minds.

A traitor who has been scanned has not been identified or found. He can take out the scanning player or stay away from them, and he'll be out of trouble. If he actually knows where the scan is coming from, he has a chance to simply avoid the scanning player, or target them.

Showing all DNA scans in the log is not an option, because people could spam them to create a massive log (and they will).

[Braegh]

It's easier than you'd expect to snipe a Detective in a group of innocents using a silenced pistol for example. And Detectives do find themselves alone (and knifed), because innocents generally care more about their own short-term well-being. Theoretically they should protect him, as it is in their long term interest, in practice it's not the first thing on their minds.

A traitor who has been scanned has not been identified or found. He can take out the scanning player or stay away from them, and he'll be out of trouble. If he actually knows where the scan is coming from, he has a chance to simply avoid the scanning player, or target them.

Showing all DNA scans in the log is not an option, because people could spam them to create a massive log (and they will).

Sniping the detective (as well as anyone else who doesn't see me) with a silenced pistol is something I like to do myself. In fact, I rarely ever use the knife anymore. The silenced pistol's sound is usually immediately noticed by many of the people I've been playing with, though, and WILL have heads turning as soon as you shoot near others.

What telling the traitor they've been scanned does is reward them with information (I now know the detective's got my DNA) for making the mistake of leaving DNA around. I can now change my plans around this - a very simple example being buying and planting a C4 right where I stand, knowing someone's coming towards my current location.

Yes, the traitor does need to know they've been DNA scanned to stop RDM accusations. I've been accused of RDMing all too often because of it - but I just don't think telling them while they're alive is the right thing to do. It limits the potential for innocents to be stealthy themselves. ("Oh, I just got scanned, and this guy here keeps pointing a gun at me no matter how much I move. Gotta be him who's got the scanner.")

If you just want to limit the DNA scanner's effectiveness, perhaps have it recharge slower or take a minimum of power regardless of distance? It's very easy to repeatedly scan someone if they're close enough.

[Bad King Urgrain]

I'm not looking to limit the DNA scanner's effectiveness, I want traitors to have a fighting chance when they get scanned. Notifying them of a scan is important because right now they can avoid detectives or kill them, simply because they always know who is one. With covert detectives they won't have that information, and telling them when and where they were scanned gives it back along with a little boost. That boost is a good thing, because covert detectives would themselves be a major boost for detectives/innocent.

Nerfing the scanner does not address the problem. In the current version, traitors know who has a scanner, so they know who to avoid or target. Making Detectives covert without any other change will turn them into DNA scanning ninjas who just find a corpse and then kill the completely unsuspecting traitor who never has any chance of retaliation. Nerfing the scanner will just make it take a little longer. The situation of being a magnet for arbitrary death is one Detectives have right now, and it's one neither they nor the traitors are meant to be in.

It's not about RDM.

I don't see what your example of innocents being stealthy (are they meant to be?) is saying. I realise it will limit certain strategies, but it will also create new ones. Hopefully those will be more accessible to a wider range of players, who currently resign themselves to an early death if they become Detective.

[Braegh]

Ah yes, I understand now what you're talking about - the case in which Detectives are covert. That change would be almost exactly the same as an innocent getting their hands on a DNA scanner every single round - and would indeed require some major rebalancing.

The DNA scanner as it is is rather overpowered when you look at it more closely, and even more so in a context where nobody knows where it is. If used solely on corpses killed by a Traitor-only weapon, it's almost 100% guaranteed to lead you to a traitor eventually, so I do believe if detectives are to be covert, there's got to be something changing in the mechanics of the scanner itself, one way or another. These 'DNA scanning ninjas' appear often enough as is (with innocents instead of coverts), and indeed are extremely powerful simply BECAUSE nobody knows where they are. Telling the Traitor where the DNA scanner is effectively is a lesser version of the detective revealing, and in case the scanner and the scanned are near one another, it basically becomes 'who can shoot the other guy faster'.

Even just forcing a detective to reveal themselves to scan wouldn't solve this - it would, at best, bring the situation back to what it is now. Some serious limitations would need to be placed on the scanner if it's to keep its current functionality(current location of the killer), perhaps even as harsh as having only N uses. Another option would be to overhaul the scanner again to make it somewhat less powerful.

EDIT: Maybe it would be an idea to split the idea of covert detectives into a new thread - this idea is not the same as the OP's was.

[JoTheShmo]

I like the covert idea.
I can imagine a traitor trying to prove he's actually a detective, then a detective stepping out of the crow and saying "Impossible! I'm the detective!" and revealing himself.
Would make the game a hell of a lot more funny.